In which I attempts dialogue with evangelical Christians

Great Debates
1

Yet another thread on homosexuality and Christianity.

I’m gay, and I was not raised Christian. To me, evangelical Christians have always been the people who wanted to hurt me, who said I couldn’t marry a guy or have children, the people who protest at gay pride parades. They were the people whose children I had to counsel out of committing suicide, who tossed their kids out on the street if they “came out,” or sent them to ex-gay programs. They were one of the major reasons I had to leave my small and very religious town, at age 18.

All my life, I have tried to understand this. I read most of the Bible, looking for clues, but I was thoroughly unimpressed, and it confused me even more. There were prohibitions against homosexuality, but they were couched among dietary laws and other rules that Christians no longer follow.

I’m writing a novel now, where the central character is both gay and Christian, and I suddenly realized just how alien that perspective is to me.

I try to understand people, to reach out. I can understand Christian spirituality as a reflection of my own (I’m Wiccan). I can understand heterosexual love and desire as reflections of my own.

But I can’t understand the need to change people’s lives to be all one way. I’ve always tried to understand other people, and if I can, accept them for who they are.

I don’t like to think of people as enemies – because an enemy is something less than human, and I don’t think anyone should be stripped of their humanity – and this forum is a place where we can open up dialogue without it turning into a shouting match. It’s in this spirit that I ask these questions to those Christians who think homosexuality is immoral:

a) Why are the prohibitions against homosexuality considered in effect, while most of the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy (such as the dietary regulations) are ignored by Christians?

b) Do you make a distinction between homosexuality within a monogamous relationship versus promiscuity, or are they all the same thing to you? Does the fact that I have a boyfriend matter? Do you recognize that we love as well as have sex? How do you feel about gay marriage? I’ve always found it strange that I’m told I’m promiscuous, but can’t marry.

c) How do you feel about anti-gay violence? I recently met a gay man who considered himself Christian, and before he came out had been involved in gay-bashings. Fred Phelps website happily proclaims that Matthew Shepherd has been burning in hell for (as of today) 1303 days.

d) Would you disown a child who came out as gay/lesbian/bisexual? Would you forbid your child to have a gay/lesbian/bisexual friend?

e) Personal beliefs aside, how do you feel about the laws? Do you keep your religious beliefs separate? Do you think homosexuality is immoral, but should be legal?

f) How do you feel about transsexuality? I’ve always assumed the attitude was hostile, but I can’t imagine the Scriptural precedant for it.

g) I believe that homosexuality, bisexuality, and heterosexuality are all inborn. If science comes to the same conclusion, would that make a difference for you? Or would it simply be another animal drive to be repressed, like heterosexual desire outside of marriage?

All these questions dance around what I can’t really formulate – why would a person want everyone else to live the same way? I don’t want everyone to be gay, or to be Wiccan, so I can’t understand why anyone would want everyone to be heterosexual or Christian.

I’m also interested in the perspectives of gay/lesbian/bisexual Christians and those Christians who do not feel homosexuality is immoral. How do you reconcile homosexuality with the Scriptural citations that, for instance, www.godhatesfags.com quotes? For gay Christians, was it hard to reconcile religion and sexual orientation? What conclusions did you have to come to?

I realize this is a lot of questions for one thread. Any help is appreciated.

2

Ooops – spelling mistake in the title:o

Should have taken another look at it before posting…

3

The short answer is that many Christian groups feel that only what they call the moral laws of the Old Testament remain in effect. Thus, the dietary laws, not being considered as relating to morality, are irrelevant. Those Christians who think homosexuality is immoral will ascribe the status of “moral law” to the interpreted prohibition in the Old Testament.

4

Whatever laws or standards which I feel are relevant are to be applied to me only; it’s not my job to express (what, if any, I feel to be) God’s disapproval, planks in eyes and all that.

Horrified; Phelps is (thankfully) not representative of any of the Christians I know. I hope I’m right in thinking he represents a very small group of minds.

I think we all hope that our children will grow up to be just like us; it’s like seeking approval or affirmation; I don’t honestly know how I’d react if this happened, I’d like to think that I’d be understanding.

I think laws should exist to protect potential victims of crime, in ‘crimes’ where there is no victim, I think law is the wrong tool and conscience should be applied.

Don’t know; some high profile media ‘transexuals’ are admittedly a little scary; I’m not aware of having met any ‘normal’ ones - that might mean that I have never met any or that I have met many and they are just like me - may I skip this question?

Personally, I don’t believe that sexual orientation is entirely inborn, but whether or not that is true is an interesting but ultimately trivial matter for scientists to get excited about; what matters (to me) is not the cause, but how we deal with the effect.

5

Hammish,

I am a heterosexual (in theory, anyway :)) Evangelical Christian, so let’s dialog.

My Lord requires me to bear witness to my faith, and speak out boldly in the face of sin. That’s why I talk about my faith, whenever anyone asks about it.

But He also tells me to be concerned with my own sin, and even when sins are done against me, to forgive them seven times seventy times. I suppose when someone makes 491 homosexual passes at me I will have to decide if homosexual passes are a sin. Until that time, it doesn’t seem to be something I have authority to judge.

The only thing that I am called upon to do, or say because I am a Christian is that God loves you, and he commands me to love you too. I believe sin happens in the heart. I have authority to speak of the sin in my own heart, and confess them to those against whom I have sinned, and to the Lord. If you ask me to be your confessor, and aid you in bringing your heart to the Lord, then I must do so, in love, and with compassion. If I fail, and speak my own heart, with hatred, and lead you away from Him, I have done unspeakable harm to you, and blasphemed the Holy Spirit. No sin is worse.

Phelps knows nothing of Andrew Shepherd. He knows a great deal about Hell.

People don’t need religion to hate that which is different than themselves. People don’t need much help hating at all, in fact. Please don’t hate Christians because they hate you. Not because Christians deserve not to be hated, but because you deserve not to hate.

Christ is not a Christian, by the way.

Tris

6

Here’s a link to different groups and their positions, both affirming and anti-gay: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/resesrch_homosexuality_religion.html

There are gay-supportive movements inside many of the mainline Christian demoninations. Following the link above, I was surpised - shocked really - to find out that there are even a few among the more evangelical groups, including Pentecostal.

7

I’ve had a lot of experiences with evangelical and fundamentalist Christians, so I’ll try to explain a bit in response to your questions.

Well, there are a couple of different answers to this.

There is a small, but existent, group of Christians who are ultra-fundamentalist and believe that the Old Testament laws are still more or less in effect (minus circumscision). They take particular issue with homosexuality because the number of people who believe that homosexuality is not wrong is increasingly prevalent and vocal, and because it is a hot-button topic that increases awareness of and exposure to their belief system.

Other anti-homosexual Christians are either a) ignorant of other Old Testament rules or b) believe that prohibitions against homosexuality are more important than other rules (such as the kosher laws), because of where it is placed in the Old Testament and that it is (according to some) also prohibited in the New Testament. You can find out more information about the passages of the Bible that refer to homosexuality and what liberal and fundamentalist Christians believe that they, in fact, say here.

Fundamentalists believe that homosexual acts are a sin, regardless of context. Thus, they are wrong no matter what.

I have never met a fundamentalist Christian who believed that homosexuals honestly could love one another; they would answer that you do not love him, you only lust for him. This is simply because if God meant for only women and men to marry and have sex, why would God (being good and loving) cause love to occur when it would be wrong to carry it out? This is connected with the belief that homosexuality is not inherent nor an orientation but a behavior only.

Promiscuity is more or less only a point to try to illustrate that homosexuality is bad, not a factor into why it is bad. It is bad simply because the Bible says so (according to them), not because of behavior it causes. Non-promiscuous gay men are still sinning because the act itself of having sex with another man is a sin.

1.) Many fundamentalists, as well as others, doubt Phelps’ veracity. I have met Fred Phelps. I believe that he is a charlatan and I don’t think that he’s representative of an honest (if, IMHO, misguided) fundamentalist believer.

2.) Most fundamentalists are very, very careful about teaching violence because of legal issues. What you will generally hear is that certain sins – homosexuality and abortion, for example – are worthy of death according to the Bible, but that they do not support vigilante justice. There are also certain rules in the OT about proving guilt.

The fundamentalists I have spoken with would answer yes to both of these questions.

Many fundamentalists, though not all, believe that the separation of church and state is a mistake and that all governments should follow the laws of God. According to the OT, homosexual acts are punishable by death.

I have never heard a fundamentalist speak on this topic either.

Even if science were to prove such a thing, it would most likely be responded to in two ways: a) flat denial with comparative tactics to creation ‘science’, and b) as irrelevant, because the Bible does not say that it is not inherent, only that it is wrong.

To a fundamentalist, diversity is not nearly as important as obeying what they perceive to be the will of God. Everyone should be Christian, because all non-Christians are going to Hell. Everyone should be straight, because gay sex is a sin, and sinners go to Hell. God does not value individual opinions. God only values obedience and faith, and the decision whether or not to be saved is of cardinal importance. Ultimately speaking, to some Christians, it is better to use even dirty tactics (such as picketing funerals) to convert people, because making people upset is much better than allowing one salvageable soul to go to Hell.

Please note that my responses are not indicative of all anti-homosexual Christians, only those extreme fundamentalist groups with which I have had extensive contact.

8

Hamish, I extend an invitation to come to my church, Faith Lutheran in Phoenix. We are part of the ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. We are a reconciled in Christ congregation. That means we accept everyone that wants to worship and commune with us. Your sexual orientation, gender identity, marital status or former religious affiliation don’t matter to us. We won’t try to fix you or change you because you aren’t broken.

9

I am not sure that I can add anything of worth to the excellent answers Tris and Mangetout have already given, but one thing that I do feel is that the issue of sexuality (and by extension sexual sin) is one that causes deep (and often times irrational) emotions in people. Sexuality is such a fundamental part of who we perceive ourselves to be, that any attack (or perceived attack) upon it becomes an attack upon us as a person. Like Mangetout I do not believe that the evidence for sexuality being inborn is conclusive in either direction, but it is clear that it is a fundamental part of who we perceive ourselves to be. To an anti-homosexual person (Christian or not), your homosexuality, is a threat to their own sexuality. It implies that their own sexuality might not be as solid or as fixed as they once thought. Trans-sexuality would (I guess) provoke the same sort of response…

I think that most people who have rabid anti-homosexual feelings have had little or no contact with any “real” homosexuals. As with many moralistic opinions, they are a lot harder to maintain in the “heat of battle”. My own journey toward really dealing with what I felt about homosexuality only began when a member of our church, whom I admired and respected greatly, came out to the congregation. My own beliefs at the time (that one could not be gay and Christian) were challenged, as here was a man who I admired for his faith, yet who told me he was gay and had been gay for as long as he could remember. One of my opinions had to change…

If your child came out to you as a parent, you would be faced with a similar choice - either your hatred of gays or your love for your child would have to give way. Many parents (I think/would hope) find that their strongly held anti-homosexual stance melts in the face of the love for their child, although I am sure that this in not always the case. But then, there are orthodox Jews who will hold a funeral when their child converts to Christianity, so intolerance is not restricted to just one faith!!

Gp

10

My thought on disowning your child is if you believe homosexuality is a sin, then it is your duty to love and forgive. There are plenty of parables in the bible to support this - the lost sheep, the prodigal son, etc. From my understanding of christianity, to turn your back on anyone is the epitomy of anti-christianity. But when you take anything to extremism it starts to show the flip side (eg murdering abortion doctors).

Jesus as the New Testament portrays him was infinitely tolerant, loving and forgiving, so I see no excuse under his teachings for turning your back on anyone, let alone your own child.

That said, there are many christians who do not necessarily see homosexuality as “a sin” so they would not even need to forgive it, nor to encourage the homosexual person to ask for forgiveness, etc.

11

“Don’t know; some high profile media ‘transexuals’ are admittedly a little scary; I’m not aware of having met any ‘normal’ ones - that might mean that I have never met any or that I have met many and they are just like me - may I skip this question?”

—Hello, Mangetout. How do you do?

12
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Hi Eve :slight_smile: - I hope my comment above did not cause offense.

14

Not at all, dear—most people don’t realize they DO know any of us, which is why I try not to keep it a big secret. Of course, I also don’t lead off the conversation with it . . . If you have any questions, I’ll be happy to oblige. And I assure you, I am as normal and dull as a cup of tea. Plain, no sugar.

“Never really thought about it but generally against it.”

—Howcum, Puddleglum?

15

“Its icky”

16

Mangetout: You’re correct that one’s interpretations of a particular body of scripture should only apply to one, in my opinion. The problem is that the Fundamentalist opinion is so often that their interpretation should also apply to you. “Agree to disagree” has no place in that view. Sad, ain’t it?

17

“Its icky”

Hmmm. As there is no smiley-face there, Puddleglum, am I to accept at (sorry) face value that you find me and my entire existence “icky?”

I suggest you acquaint yourself with some transgendered people; do some research, do some reading.

And also brush up on the use of the apostrophe.

18

Um, exactly how does homosexuality and/or transsexuality prevent fellowship with God?

19

Mr. Wright:
Sin seperates people from God spiritually.

20

If God is Love
Then how can Love be sin?