For those who thought the Civil War ended 135 years ago...

For those who thought the Civil War ended 135 years ago
Can they really vote themselves out?

It seems the poor 'ol South was never the same since that War, oh so long ago. The culture has been under seige from those self-important Northerns. Those Yanks have always look down their noses on those below the Mason-Dixon.

Well they ain’t gonna take it any more. And the Southern Party has a plan.

Nah, none of this war stuff, it’s too damn messy. They’re thinking of voting themselves out.

From the Washington Times

In their hope to ressurrect the ghost of Nathan Bedford Forrest, can they really vote themselves out. I’m not getting in on if they can get the support and such, but just is it legal, constitutional?

I’m no constitutional scholar. But, my gut feeling says no.

From Article I of the U.S. Constitution:

Even without a deep grounding in Consitutional law, it seems that this section pretty much keeps a state from becoming or joining another country. Once you’re in the United States, you’re in for good, unless you get captured by another country or fight your way out. And isn’t that how we got into this mess in the first place?

And what are the Southern Party’s reasons for secession? Fear of industrialization? A little too late for that.
States rights? That battle has been fought and lost repeatedly.
Preserving a “way of life”? Life in the South is pretty much the same as it is most parts of the country.

The Southern Party sounds like an excuse for some people to get out of debt or re-establish apartheid in the United States.

If GW Bush is elected president, 3 of the last 5 presidents would be from the South. (4 of 5 if you argue that George Bush was a Texan.) I don’t see how the South is being shortchanged politically.

I bought a Star Trek chess set and a Civil War chess set. Now I have the South fight the Klingons!

Bob- Al Gore is from Tennesee, so it looks like either way, we get a Dixielander.

Trust me, we dont claim Gore as a Southerner. :smiley:

SterlingNorth said:

I think you’ll find there has never actually been a legal decision on whether secession from the Union is constitutional or not–at least not at the US Supreme Court level. Nor was any individual ever convicted of treason in connection with the Civil War. Technically, then, it’s still an open question.

But the Supreme Court did have cases after the shooting was done which could have brought the issue up, and as I recall they wanted to avoid the whole concept like the plague. One of the statements they made to avoid dealing with it was to the effect of “this issue was settled on the battlefield.” In other words, the side which won was presumed to be right, and the Court wasn’t gonna decide differently. So…if we take that as a legal precedent, the federal government would have the authority to quell an attempt to break up the Union with force. (Nowadays, I suspect a few armored divisions would be sufficient to make any rebels lose interest pretty quick…along with maybe a B-1 strike on Atlanta, just as a matter of tradition.)

As to whether the federal government could legally consentto states leaving the Union…I don’t know. There’s no kind of precedent for that situation at all.

Incidentally, I seem to recall some talk of Alaska leaving the United States–maybe 20 years ago. Does anyone else remember this, or did I hallucinate it?

Forgot about Gore. Probably not a good sign especially since I am intending to vote for him.

ROTFLOL!

In response to the OP, there is no way the federal gov’t would ever recognize a referendum to secede from the Union, no matter what the constitution says. These people are just trying to draw attention to themselves.

The Constitution does not contain any sections that allows for any referenda that are binding on the Federal government. If we’re lucky, we’ll never pass an amendment that would allow such a thing.

As a California resident, I can tell you that the people of this state will vote for just about any hare-brained idea that comes down the pike, regardless of its constitutionality or practicality.

For your edification, the U.S. Supreme Court repeatedly dealt with the issue of the “constitutionality” of the southern secession in a series of cases dealing with the validity of bonds issued by the individual state governments that were part of the Confederacy, and with contracts with Northern businesses declared void by the same. The most oft quoted language is from Texas v. White,
74 U.S. 700, 19 L.Ed. 227, 7 Wall. 700 (1868). This case was later reversed on other grounds, but the legal principles regarding the legal approach to the validity of secession has never been challenged:

"Considered therefore as transactions under the Constitution, the ordinance of secession, adopted by the convention and ratified by a majority of the citizens of Texas, and all the acts of her legislature intended to give effect to that ordinance, were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law. The obligations of the State, as a member of the Union, and of every citizen of the State, as a citizen of the United States, remained perfect and unimpaired. It certainly follows that the State did not cease to be a State, nor her citizens to be citizens of the Union. If this were otherwise, the State must have become foreign, and her citizens foreigners. The war must have ceased to be a war for the suppression of rebellion, and must have become a war for conquest and subjugation.

Our conclusion therefore is, that Texas continued to be a State, and a State of the Union, notwithstanding the transactions to which we have referred. And this conclusion, in our judgment, is not in conflict with any act or declaration of any department of the National government, but entirely in accordance with the whole series of such acts and declarations since the first outbreak of the rebellion."

I think the only way any state could leave the United States would be if a constitutional convention was held, and the secession either expressly approved or the general right to seceed was adopted.
Effective chance of happening: approx. 10[sup]-12[/sup]

This whole “settled on the battlefield” business reeks of trial by combat; however, I don’t see a better way of doing it. A nice thing about secession, you don’t have to endorse the Supremes interpretation. Which leads to my next question:

Was secession constitutional?
I am not certain that it was not. At least for the states that were once independant. I searched but couldn’t find an online copies of the ratification of the Constitution by any Confederate state. Maybe someone more experianced would care to help me out. I would think that these documents, written by men who feared central governments, would assert the continued sovereignty of the state. Also, the 10th amendment provides that powers not delegated to the central government remained with the states, or the people.

To me this is not a black and white issue.

SoxFan59: Holding that Texas did not legally leave the Union is not the same as holding secession itself unconstitutional. They had no real choice but to rule that Texas (and the other Confederate States) never left the Union, as the opinion itself conceeds:

As I said before, I know of no decision that actually held secession unconstitutional–as opposed to specific acts of secession, which under the circumstances hadto be found unconstitutional. If you find one that does, I’d certainly be interested in knowing it.

Also note the final sentence:

which seems to me to be another way of saying “it was settled on the battlefield.”

2sense said:

In a theoretical sense, without taking the war into account? There is no provision in the Constitution either way, and (unless SoxFan59 shows me I’m wrong) no definitive judicial word. James Buchanan, who was president when states started seceeding, was of the opinion sucession was illegal…but also that the federal government had no authority to do anything about it. (You may have noticed Buchanan never made it onto any US currency. Now you know why.)

As I recall, the arguments at the time went something like this (I don’t remember exact quotes or who made them):

Secession Constitutional–parties who voluntarily join a union have the inherent power to withdraw; this inherent power is so obvious that there was no need to include it as a constitutional provision. In a sense, this compares secession to divorce from a marriage…though it’s worth noting that divorce was illegal in most (if not all) states at that time. Someone posted a link to the CSA Constitution a few weeks back in one thread or another–what jumped out at me immediately was that there was not a single word about secession from the Confederacy.

Sesession Unconstitutional–no government would set up a mechanism for it’s own legal destruction. Perhaps true, though the Framers had themselves overthrown a government just a few years before. In effect, this sees the United States as a Roach Motel–you can get in, but you can’t get out. (I hear the Eagles Hotel Californiain the background–“You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.”)

(Then there’s West Virginia, which seceeded from both the CSA and the State of Virginia, apparently successfully…but thinking about thatis just going to give us a headache.)

All the above is theoretical. In the practical sense, the sucession of the Southern states in 1860 and 1861 was very definitely unconstitutional…because it was settled on the battlefield. Had the Confederates won the Civil War and become independent, it would have been constitutional for the same reason.

As for secession today…we’ll never know for sure unless someone actually tries it. Regardless of the Southern Party and their press releases, I don’t see it happening.

More from Texas v. White:(emphasis added)

“Did Texas, in consecuence of these acts, cease to be a State? Or, if not, did the State cease to be a member of the Union? It is needless to discuss, at length, the question whether the right of a State to withdraw from the Union for any cause, regarded by herself as sufficient, is consistent with the Constitution of the United States.
The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form, and character, and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these the Union was solemnly declared to ‘be perpetual.’ And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained ‘to form a more perfect Union.’ It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?
But the perpetuity and indissolubility of the Union, by no means implies the loss of distinct and individual existence, or of the right of self-government by the States. Under the Articles of Confederation each State retained its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right not expressly delegated to the United States. Under the Constitution, though the powers of the States were much restricted, still, all powers not delegated to the United States, nor prohibited to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. And we have already had occasion to remark at this term, that the people of each State compose a State, having its own government, and endowed with all the functions essential to separate and independent existence,’ and that ‘without the States in union, there could be no such political body as the United States.’ Not only, therefore, can there be no loss of separate and independent autonomy to the States, through their union under the Constitution, but it may be not unreasonably said that the preservation of the States, and the maintenance of their governments, are as much within the design and care of the Constitution as the preservation of the Union and the maintenance of the National government. THE CONSTITUTION, IN ALL ITS PROVISIONS, LOOKS TO AN INDESTRUCTABLE UNION, COMPOSED OF INDESTRUCTABLE STATES.
When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States.”

Thus, whether one agrees with the logic or not, it is clear the court has determined that absent complete consent by the other states or the U.S. being conquered by a foreign power, there is no legal way for a state or states to legally secede from the Union. So your “check in but can’t check out” comparison is correct.

Also, you misunderstand the court’s references to the “outbreak of the rebellion.” In 1868, while the war was over, the southern states were still largely under military occupation. I don’t have the date of Texas’ readmission to the Union handy, but I’ll bet it was after 1868. The formality of re-ratifying the constitution, with the amendments revoking slavery and recognizing the rights of former slaves, was yet to occur. The court’s attitude was merely a recognition of the hostilities that followed the attempt to secede, and the difficulties that ensued.

A more modern reason for opposing secession and the court determining it is illegal is the issue of the rights guaranteed by the 14th amendment (that is, “equal protection”). Because the 14 amendment was not ratified until after the war, and not litigated until the mid-20th century, the “Texas v. White” court could not have imagined this. But if an individual state wanted to remove itself from the federal government, there would no longer be a guarantee that the state would protect the consstitutional rights of the U.S. citizens living within its borders (purportedly, the entire population). Thus, any act of a state which would alter the legal status of its citizens vis a vis the federal government would be a per se violation of equal protection.

Then, there’s the issue of treason, which is specifically prohibited by the Constitution . . .

My apologies for the smily in the previous post. It was unintentional. I hate this technical stuff.

[QUOTE**(Then there’s West Virginia, which seceeded from both the CSA and the State of Virginia, apparently successfully…but thinking about thatis just going to give us a headache.)
**[/QUOTE]

The West Virginia seccession was legal. The constitution (Article IV, section 3) states:

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
*.

When Virginia left the union, the people of the counties that remained loyal elected a new state legislature. They then convinced the Federal government to recognize them as the true legislature of Virginia (the other legislature being null and void). They then gave their permission for the creation of the state of West Virginia and applied to Congress for membership in the Union.

Zev Steinhardt

Zev’s got the right facts, but incorrect conclusion.

The West Virginia “secession” was not legal, because the counties of the Commonwealth of Virginia that currently make up West Virginia refused to secede. They later applied for and received statehood on thier own. It was constitutional in light of the portion quoted by Zev because by “attempting” to secede, the Virginia legislature was giving its tacit consent to the formation of the new state, and, of course, Congress approved. The fact that all that is not clear has not changed the fact the W Va has since been a seperate state.

Oh well, I thought I had it right.

Thanks for the correction SoxFan.

Zev Steinhardt