What exactly is the science of forensics and the science of pathology? How are they related and what is the education needed to pursue a career in these fields? Are they necessarily involved with criminology? Do they necessarily involve dead people?
I am confused.
Pathology is a medical discipline defined as “n 1: the branch of medical science that studies the causes and nature and effects of diseases” (Webster). Pathologist study disease, regardless of whether the patient is alive or dead, animal or vegetable. There doesn’t even have to be a “patient”, per sey, to study the nature of a disease.
“Forensic” is not a medical discipline, it is a legal term defined as “adj. Belonging to courts of judicature or to public discussion and debate; used in legal proceedings, or in public discussions; argumentative; rhetorical; as, forensic eloquence or disputes. Forensic medicine, medical jurisprudence; medicine in its relations to law.” (On Line Medical dictionary).
In the context you mention, a medical forensics expert would be one who uses his medical knowlege to further a legal case (remember the old TV show Quincy, Medical Examiner?). In theory, medical forensics could apply to live patients, but most often it is used to solve cases involving death.
Sig! Sig a Sog! Sig it loud! Sig it Strog! – Karen Carpenter with a head cold
Forensics is the application of scientific or medical knowledge to legal matters. Pathology is the branch of medicine dealing with the nature of disease. The two fields are not necessarily related. Forensic evidence might consist of DNA samples or hair and fiber samples analyzed by current scientfic methods. This would have nothing to do with pathology. Alternatively, pathological information could become forensic evidence if it is used to support or refute criminal charges.
The level of education needed for a career in these fields would depend on the position you would like. I imagine a college degree would be enough to become a technician in these fields. If you wanted to run a lab you would need more schooling.
As far as dead people go, both fields would probably have a pretty high exposure to those who have left this realm. Hope this is helpful,
John
Then he got up on top
With a tip of his hat.
“I call this game FUN-IN- A-BOX”
Said the cat.
-The Cat in the Hat
I can answer the forensics half of the question because I almost went that route with my career. To go anywhere in the field, you need to get an MPH (Master of Public Health) degree in Forensic Science. Most universities that have a school of public health will offer this degree. In California, U.C. Berkeley is the most reputable, though I don’t think it’s considered the best school nationwide. You can work as a technician, usually in conjunction with a criminal justice agency, having just an undergraduate Biology or Chemistry degree. With this, or the MPH however, you can bet you’ll make peanuts in salary. The real money is in working the consulting angle as an ‘expert witness’ which takes YEARS of grunt work and low pay first.
Regarding the ‘dead people’ issue, that depends on your specialty once you get to the lab. At least at the San Diego Police Crime Laboratory (though I assume it works this way elsewhere) you pick a field and stick with it. I know three people in this field, none of which sees dead people on a regular basis (unless you count pictures). The ballistics guy just compares bullets under a microscope all day, the narcotics guy just looks at reading from a gas chromotograph, and the accident reconstruction guy…well, looks at smashed up cars.
One thing I have seen to be universally true in all cases (here comes the warning if you are thinking about pursing this career)…You will never be rich or have a stable relationship if you go into this field. It makes you a cynic, and you start to approach relationships as purely sexual because you subconsciously cannot fall in love with the person, knowing they will be dead on a slab at some point in their life. However, if you’re a fat, ugly, otherwise intelligent person who loves the taste of Top Ramen noodles…go for it.
Personally, I turned into a greedy bastard and went to business school instead.
One of my possible career options (down the road a bit) is to work in forensic accounting for the FBI. Basically investigating dead bad guys or rich guys, figuring out monetary issues, and making sure illegal things are stopped in criminal organizations.
Kind of like an accounting superhero.
Do I see a best-selling line of crime novels in the future? Starring: “Mullinator - Forensic Accountant!”
I’d better start on my screenplay before another Hollywood hack beats me to it.
Mullinator,
‘Forensic’ accounting actually has very little to do with Forensic Science per se. That is, you will NOT see any dead people. They actually offered tons of courses in that at my business school (Univ. of Texas at Austin - Hook’em Horns!). You’ll also be happy to know that it also differs from the rest of Forensics in that it actually pays quite well (starts in the $50-60K range with an MPA - Masters of Professional Accounting) Regular ‘Forensics’ people get in the high $20K range to start or mid $30K with the MPH degree which sucks.
Incidentally, you can do forensic consulting for one of the big 3 auditing firms (Arthur Andersen, PWC, or KPMG Peat Marwick) and make a shitload more money than working for the FBI. After all, criminals who need to HIDE the money have to go to accountants too 
and they pay a lot more than the pigs…er…rather, police officers…who investigate them…
Yarster
Thanks for the info. I haven’t exactly done much research on the monetary aspects of it, but I doubt it is something I will pursue, because by that point I envision the salary being a pay cut, and I am too much of a capitalist for that.
After your post, I am now picturing myself doing a journal entry with a gunshot victim lying on the floor next to me.
my team came in 4th place at the 2000 New York State Forensics Championship
Forensics means speech and debate
I’m not the only one on this MB who will tell you that
Mayor of Snerdville, the home of Mortimer Snerd
“I’m just too much for human existence – I should be animated.”
–Wayne Knight
Forensic = to do with courts. From the Latin forum.
Pathology = the study of disease processes.
Forensic pathology = the study of disease processes for legal purposes.
Most pathologists spend their time trying to find out what is wrong with living patients in order that they can be treated effectively.
Yup, I’ve been doing forensics for two years now. As a matter of fact, I go to a national forensics competition next week!
(Pay no attention to that chattering sound–that’s just my knees knocking.)
me too! me too!
Actually, we sent a guy to the other national tournament last week and he had a great time! He got gifts for some of us – I got a keychain! He’s been telling some amazing stories; there were a lot of good competitors and from his stories they all sound amazing. He insists that we buy a tape of the ADS finals if one becomes available.
Maelro, if next week’s nationals are anything like last week’s, it should be an absolutely unforgettable experience.
Mayor of Snerdville, the home of Mortimer Snerd
“I’m just too much for human existence – I should be animated.”
–Wayne Knight
::Test post. Please ignore this post. If there are multiposts above, please ignore them too.::
I’m hoping it will be unforgettable…and making it to the final round (oh, heck–winning first place for BOTH of my speeches) would certianly be unforgettable.
wow. Just the thought of that is just . . . wow. I certainly won’t make it to finals . . . or even semifinals . . . or quarterfinals . . .
seeing that I have to devote no less than 15 hours a week just to keep my school’s team running, I haven’t had much time for practice.
yeah, I know. Excuses, excuses . . .
Mayor of Snerdville, the home of Mortimer Snerd
“I’m just too much for human existence – I should be animated.”
–Wayne Knight
Here’s a question for you guys. I have a friend going to John J. in New York, who just happens to be studying forensic pathology. Now, he’s under the impression that once he gets his degree he’ll be able to get a job almost anywhere: the FBI, police, basically ANY law enforcement agency in, well, the world. Is he correct in this assumption? How “in demand” are forensic pathologists?
Also, and this is something that I am personally curious about, if a fornsic pathologist is hired by my local police force, full time, does the pathologist get a gun? Is he/she part of “the force?” I’m only asking because this friend of mine had, shall we say, quite an “unpolished” past, and the idea of his with a weapon isn’t particularly pleasing. Thanks.
Hey, if it ain’t broke, give ME a shot at it.
Daniel–I’m sure you’ll make it to at least quarter-finals! Don’t beat yourself up before the judges do!
lol! Yeah, the judges can be pretty harsh. I’ve found that judges can have wildly different opinions of my interp piece. The last tournament I got a 5 and a 1 in prelims (and of course didn’t make it to finals). Go figure.
We’ll see what happens at nationals. Thanks.
Mayor of Snerdville, the home of Mortimer Snerd
“I’m just too much for human existence – I should be animated.”
–Wayne Knight
I’ve finally figured out something that will make all the ADS judges like me. Do a speech about drinking, and make sure to hand out “samples” to your judges.
“Maelro? Oh…(hic!)…her speech was…(hic!)…fantastic, or somthing.”
“If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same.”
Kipling
El Smasho:
I can’t speak to the amount of demand there is for forensic pathologists; however, I can tell you that your friend would be considered support personnel and not part of the “force”. He would not be issued a gun , nor would he carry a police officer’s badge. Although he probably would have some sort of special id so that he could get into a crime scene if necessary depending on the exact nature of his position , for a forensic pathologist not likely. He would not have the policing powers that a police officer has.
Big cities do have their own police labs and hire scientists from various branches. Smaller cities and towns either use a close big city crime lab or possibly contract out to a local company if one is available.