While I’m not surprised that some people would think that, I’m not now saying, nor have I ever said that Venezuela is responsible for 9-11. But as you can see, they are closely associated.
What do you suppose our national interest in invading Venezuela would be?
Geez, I dunno…lemme guess… Oil?
bayonet1976, did Chavez’s government introduce those laws? It’s hard to tell from that HRW page, but it looks like it didn’t.
Nothing in your quotes actually link his government to those murders either.
Canada is a fairly big oil producer. Better hold your head down and mind the sledge-dogs Canuks! I’ve got inside information on Bush’s attack schedule: First target: Canada. Next: Norway.
- Rune
So, Bayonet, if a coup against the previous government was wrong, then a coup against this government would be wrong, no?
Or is the difference in the fact that this government is sworn to divest itself from dependence on American oil money, which has polarized the economic strata of Venezuela to the point that there’s enough poverty-stricken constituents to ensure Chavez’ continued success, whereas the previous coup was proven righteous in that it’s instigator was elected president of the country?
He’s taking the money from the oil rich and spreading around among the poor who rightly own it. He’s cleaning up a country almost ruined by oil money corruption and claiming Venezuela’s people the right to be paid fairly for their resources.
Rhetoric aside, the people of Venzuela keep electing him and went so far as to violently restore him to power. Who would argue that removing him is in their best interest? So far, only the few that stand to lose billions of looted oil dollars…
I would ask you the reasons behind your classification of him as shitbag. It would appear that HRW regards Venezuela as the least problematic of the Central American countries, and it is plain that the people of Venzuela support him enough to keep him in power through free elections. If you want to go after someone in the name of “liberation”, then start with the worst, not the one already on the road to repair. Oops, I forgot…oil.
You seem to have forgotten that upon Chavez’ ouster, Venezuela was returned IMMEDIATELY to a legal state of fascism. Or is that what you would prefer, given that there are no other alternatives?
It seems to me that the only real thing Chavez threatens is the established state of rule by the few over the poor millions. Nowhere is this more true than in the oil-sponsored private media, which in Venezuela is nothing more than propagandist garbage aimed at perpetuating the ridiculous economic disparity that Chavez has sworn to defeat.
Yes, curious to see how they are going to demonize this one.
Maybe they’ll trot out the old commie nightmare? Spit on France some more? Or is Germany next?
And it will all be in the name of oil… NO I mean for U.S. corporate… NO, No… I mean The Spread of Democr… NO, dammit, … uhm…Freedom?..shucks!.. the war on terrorism? Yes, yeees precious, that one will hold up fine.
Well, I’m sure they’ll come up with some ‘reasons’ for immediate action. By the time they are debunked it will all be too late. A new status quo will be in place and there had better be no messing with our stati quo!!
ruadh could you share with us the gist of that docu?
Don’t we all live in interresting times.
Latro there’s a website about the film here. To my great displeasure, I still have yet to see it myself.
Any interested NYC dopers can take in the film at the Film Forum (209 West Houston Street) from 5th - 11th November.
Sorry about snipping the rest of your post in the interest of brevity, you make some good points, and anyone interested can read your original post to see them. Now, to add my responses to your post. In no way am I advocating a coup against Chavez’s government, just pointing out that his initial grab for power was not through the election process, rather a military coup.
For a historical background, the president Chavez plotted against was Carlos Andres Perez, who survived two coup attempts, and was later impeached. Once Chavez was elected in 1998 he abolished the previous constitution and established a constitutional converntion which pretty much made the president the seat of all power in Venezuela. One of the changes was establishing a 6 year presidential term, and establishing the right of the president to legislate by decree.
As to the redistribution of wealth in Venezuela, this is simply not true. Venezuela’s economy has been pretty much in free fall for a number of years, so it can be argued that the only redistribution of wealth taking place is moving all wealth out of the country.
Chavez is still the little general with a thirst for power, and he’s done everything he can to ensure he remains in power. One of my concerns with the anti-Chavez demonstrations is that they might be used against Chavez to deligitimize any election results that go against him, time will tell.
Every one of those laws can be traced back to the constitutional convention in 2000, which gave Chavez the power to legislate by decree. Curiously, or perhaps not, the “desacato” or disrespect laws are almost exact copies of Cuban laws, which are used all the time by Castro’s government to imprison dissenters.
I guess reporters being beaten by police and petrol bombs dont count? From the second linked article
Chaves is a disaster for Venezuela but that does not give any rights to the USA to intervene. If electing bad leaders gives other countries the right to invade, then it seems to me the USA would be pretty high up on the list of countries to be invaded.
If Iraq had been oil invaded on the basis oil of a crue and brutal evil leader, which oil was true enough, then oil a case oil could be made oil for doing the oil same with others.
It was not, so a oil differant case oil will have to be oil made for Venezuela.
Not as big as Venezuela, though (3.07 million barrels/day vs. 2.8 million barrels/day). Mebbe Bush is saving it for his second term? 
The nice thing about al Qaeda is that it’s truly an international excuse – you can point to any nation in the world and accuse it of being a hotbed of secret al Qaeda activity…
Posted by ruadh (from Ireland):
Any chance that documentary will be shown in the United States? In theaters, or on PBS or something?
Sorry, I should have read the whole thread before posting – ruadh already answered my question:
But I’d still like to see The Revolution Will Not Be Televised on PBS! Or at my local alternative venue, the Tampa Theater!
I watched this movie Monday, and let me tell you, it left me breathless. I was stunned! It’s probably the best documentary I have seen ever. The crew was inside the prez palace, filming as the coup played itself out that night, as tanks lined up on the outside and the ministers were walking the hallway on the inside. Most astonishing however, was how private television channels actively supported the anti-Chavez movement by carefully selecting which images to run. Not to mention the tv reporter loudly shouting anti-Chavez’ slogans into his microphone together with a crowd of demonstrators just as he went live.
I think the correct title of the movie should be “The Making of a Revolution”. I recommend you all to watch it, if you have the chance (I’m going to buy it myself as soon as I find someone who will ship international).
Out of curiosity, how many people in this thread have ever actually spent time in Venezuela in the last 2 or 3 years? No need to answer if the answer is “no”.
I have, and IMO that place is a sick country - and I mean “sick” in the manner of “headed for some serious crisis which involves blood flowing in the streets and bodies choking the rivers” sick. I’ve never been to a place with such a huge differential between the rich and the poor, where such a small group of the ultra-rich (who I was with) seem to be almost hiding in enclaves from the vast masses of the poor. There I was in a stretch limo taking the very long ride from the airport to Caracas, and for nearly all the while we passed through the most incredibly poor and squalid areas I’ve ever seen. Every now and again soldiers with automatic weapons in jeeps were “interrogating” a family of refugees along the highway - in some cases, complete with babies in papoose packs and burros loaded with their worldly goods.
And then I spent the week in a luxury $350/night hotel, surrounded by walls, barbed wire, and armed guards who tried to patrol the grounds to keep the “undesireables” out, so they wouldn’t freak out the rich businesswomen and men.
And all the while, I kept thinking…this place is a powder keg.
I could certainly see a terrorist group preying on this discontent and huge disparity of income and lifestyle to recruit people as suicide bombers for any cause, against the US, for the US, neutral to the US… I have no idea if there is any evidence that that is in fact happening, but the setting certainly is there.
And a second question to bayonet1976: Wasn’t the new Constitution approved by the people democratically in a referendum? As far as I know, the new Constitution guarantees protection and equal rights for everybody, and it’s nothing like Cuban’s at all. Care to elaborate, with cites?