Forget Syria, Venezuela's closer!

[rjung]

I’m surprised none of the SDMB Great Debate regulars have picked up on this already…

Terror Close to Home
The oil-rich but politically unstable nation of Venezuela is emerging as a potential hub of terrorism in the Western Hemisphere, providing assistance to Islamic radicals from the Middle East and other terrorists, say senior U.S. military and intelligence officials. Bush administration aides see this as an unpredictably dangerous mix and are gathering more information about the intentions of a country that sits 1,000 miles south of Florida.

US News and World Report, 10/6/2003

So, whaddaya think, kids? Is there a genuine terrorist threat here, or merely an opportunity to divert the populace from domestic problems with a new enemy rally around?

Personally, I find it awfully convenient how these terrorists appear to be gathering in countries with massive oil supplies (Venezuela’s the fourth-largest exporter of oil in the world, IIRC). And ten months is certainly enough time to build up the danger and get a war rolling for the 2004 Presidential campaign…

[Mr2001]

Well, can you prove Saddam Hussein didn’t move his WMDs to Venezuela?

[GIGObuster]

Not the same US officials that found the imminent treat from Iraq?

For a reply, here is Vheadline.com:
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=11246

SHOCK HORROR: Robinson quotes “US officials” as saying that some of these cedulas were subsequently used to obtain Venezuelan passports and even American visas, which could allow the holder to elude immigration checks and enter the United States … “US officials” (again!) say that the cedulas are also being used by Colombian subversives and by some Venezuelan officials to travel surreptitiously.

But hey! Doesn’t that mean that, if Robinson’s slugfest had even a grain of truth, USA border guards aren’t doing their jobs properly and perhaps cocky US Ambassador Charles S. Shapiro should take time off from buddy-buddy routines with Venezuela’s opposition to order his consular staff to check what the heck they’re doing in the bunker on Colinas de Valle Arriba?

AFAICR that last bit is a reference to the US ambassador having “harmless” talks with opposition leaders.

I have seen Vheadline partisan before, but since they also have published very critical pieces against Chavez, I do trust them, being also more on the money, in the past, helps.

[London_Calling]

I fear the world needs to be very wary of the US (yes, I know it is already). The administration is unchecked and running away with itself, the media is compliant and the people seem to be, at best, powerless.

This is ugly, bullying, manipulating stuff in the extreme.
I guess they have to up the tempo with 15 months to go. If they get re-elected I genuinely fear for us all.

[Flying_Monk]

It’s been believed for years that Venezuela would be the next target of the US. This is hardly surprising news.

[sailor]

The previous pro-USA coup in Venezuela failed. If at first you fail, try, try again. It’s the only way to succeed.

And before Hugo Chavez is demonized like Saddam was and I am accused of defending him, let me state I cannot dislike his policies any more than I do but one has to respect the right of the people of that country to elect assholes for their leaders just as the people of the USA have done the same thing.

[ruadh]

*Originally posted by Flying_Monk *
It’s been believed for years that Venezuela would be the next target of the US.

Yep, certainly everybody I’ve ever spoken to about Venezuela - and it’s a larger number than you might think - fully expects this to happen. Matter of “when” not “if”.

Part of the reason it’s a topic of common discussion here is that a television crew from the national channel (RTÉ) happened to be filming a documentary in Venezuela when the coup happened. The programme they put together as a result (“The Revolution Will Not Be Televised”) has been very widely hailed as one of the best documentaries in years, and has been re-broadcast and has been or will be shown in a couple cinemas in Ireland and I think in Britain too.

[Rune]

Aw let’s see if we can get a little bit more melodramatic there London_Calling.

Anyway, since the American so-called neo-conservatives are the only ones with the will and wherewithal to try to jolt the middle-east out of its status quo, stagnation and decades long slow descend into despotism and fanaticism – I would be more fearful for us all if they elect someone who would stand down and reanimate the appeasement policy and no-stops negotiation processes of previous administrations, and favoured by much of Europe (but not England – which I praise you for – even if, as you’ve said, you don’t want it).

• Rune

[London_Calling]

Where on the map do you think Venezuela is ** WinstonSmith**?

[Rune]

Well gee I dunno. Around London perhaps, since you have this great fear?

• Rune

[notquitekarpov]

Yup, WinstonSmith, bombing folks sure does “jolt them out of their status quo”! Bravo you neo-cons! Er, now what do you do with the mess your create? I know, call the UN!

Some would argue that the US has entered a “short rapid descent into despotism and fanaticism” in enacting their current foreign policy objectives. Fighting fire with fire one could say.

I’ll wave your praise for my nations foolish and deceitful alliance with the US to enact this agenda thanks. Blair will not be PM after the next election, we won’t even have to vote against him as his party will dump him before we get there. A lesson for Bush maybe? A latest poll in the UK puts it at 41% I believe calling for Blair’s immediately resignation.

And on Venezuela, well I’m in the business (oil not coups!) and have heard it discuss over a beer more than once. Quite likely IMHO.

[Roland_Saul]

Let’s see now…Hugo Chavez…

Democratically elected by the biggest landslide in Venezuela’s history, survived one American-made coup, survives the usual American media slander, re-installed by his own people twice, faithful to his own ideas of mid-term government recall, has created more educational funding than anyone in Venzueal’s history, has remeianed true to his land reform claims and allocated frams to the poor.

No journalists in Venezuela are imprisoned, no torture, imprisonment, or harassment of oppposition supporters, healthcare standards have improved immensely for those that had little or none before.

Avowed enemy of the grossly corrupt oil-driven elite in the country, sworn enemy of American corporate control over his country’s oil resources, and the only Venezuelan leader to actually have the cojones to make his words into actions.

The American backed opposition coup leader, on the other hand, dissolved the legislative assembly,the supreme court, and the constitution within 12 hours of being installed.

You decide.

[Roland_Saul]

P.S. I guess I’ll have to break down and start using a spellchecker… I’m so used to being able to edit.

[Roland_Saul]

Venezuela, remained, farms… whatever.

[Brutus]

Chavez is a stereotypical 3rd-world Marxist shitbag. The sooner his is booted out (or strung up), the better, but I doubt that overt American intervention will be needed to speed along that happy day. Since Chavez already overtly gives sanctuary to at least two terrorist groups, why would it be such a stretch of the imagination to think that he would have give a little something to Al Queda? Certainly U.S. News is a more reliable source of information that that tripe GIGO linked to.

[Roland_Saul]

US News is a typical elitist shitbag that needs to be strung up IMHO. Talk about tripe…sheesh. The US has given more overt and covert support to terrorist organisations than Venezuela could ever dream of.

At least Chavez was elected. Not so Bush.:eek:

[RickJay]

*Originally posted by Brutus *
Chavez is a stereotypical 3rd-world Marxist shitbag.

The stereotypical 3rd-world banana republic shitbag isn’t elected. Typical 3rd world dictators are, well, dictators. That’s the biggest difference there could possibly be.

Since Chavez already overtly gives sanctuary to at least two terrorist groups, why would it be such a stretch of the imagination to think that he would have give a little something to Al Queda? Certainly U.S. News is a more reliable source of information that that tripe GIGO linked to.

It’s a stretch of the imagination because until you actually provide some evidence, it’s just a figment of your imagination.

[Rune]

*Originally posted by notquitekarpov *
**Yup, WinstonSmith, bombing folks sure does “jolt them out of their status quo”! **

Yup, notquitekarpov, negotiation and political pressure sure have a history of ousting dictators. Why don’t we just hand the whole damn shebang back to Saddam. The Iraqis were so much better off then, and a bit of critical dialogue will surely make him find his saintly true self sooner or later. Such dialogue has such a wonderful track record after all.

*Originally posted by notquitekarpov *
I’ll wave your praise for my nations foolish and deceitful alliance with the US to enact this agenda thanks. Blair will not be PM after the next election, we won’t even have to vote against him as his party will dump him before we get there. A lesson for Bush maybe? A latest poll in the UK puts it at 41% I believe calling for Blair’s immediately resignation.

I take it you’re not a citizen of Angola. Blair will not be PM after the next election? Perhaps not, I dearly wish I had your amazing powers to predict the future though. Working the English brokers would make me and Gates bosom friends in no time. Anyhow so what? Doing what you think is correct should not be tempered by what might be the popular thing. Much better to spend your political capital and popularity that hoard it for that offhand chance it’d get you elected for one more term of poll arse licking. Blair even positively surprised me here. Anyway, Schröder’s milking the Iraqi cow really made the voters love him, yeah he really kicked ass in that last lands election.

• Rune

[PatriotX]

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[bayonet1976]

*Originally posted by Roland Saul *
**US News is a typical elitist shitbag that needs to be strung up IMHO. Talk about tripe…sheesh. The US has given more overt and covert support to terrorist organisations than Venezuela could ever dream of.

At least Chavez was elected. Not so Bush.:eek: **

Sure, Chavez was elected, after being released from prison following a failed coup attempt. That he was elected is tribute, as sailor said, that people have the right to elect the idiots they chose.

As to your previous post about Chavez’s great record, here are a few quotes from Human Rights Watch .

Under Articles 148 and 149 of the Venezuelan Criminal Code, people can be imprisoned for insulting “by speech or in writing” the president, the vice-president, the president of the legislature, the chief justice, and numerous other government officials, or by showing them “lack of respect in any other way.” Article 150 prohibits anyone from insulting the legislature, the judiciary or the cabinet.

(Washington, D.C., February 19, 2003) The government of Hugo Chávez should carry out a thorough and impartial investigation into the abduction and murder of four opposition supporters whose bodies were found on February 16 and 17, Human Rights Watch said today.
“The government must launch a prompt and impartial investigation into this vicious crime, and must guarantee the safety of the reported witness to the killings.”

“The circumstances strongly suggest that these were political killings,” said José Miguel Vivanco, executive director of the Americas Division of Human Rights Watch. “The government must launch a prompt and impartial investigation into this vicious crime, and must guarantee the safety of the reported witness to the killings.”

Darwin Arguello, an army soldier, Angel Salas, a navy corporal, and Félix Pinto, an airman, were reportedly abducted together in Caracas during the night of February 15. The following day, police discovered Pinto’s body and that of a twenty-eight-year-old woman, Zaida Perozo López, close to a highway in the state of Miranda, some forty kilometers east of Caracas.

(New York, April 16, 2002) The Venezuelan authorities should immediately conduct a thorough and impartial investigation to determine who is responsible for the killings and other serious human rights abuses committed during the recent political unrest, Human Rights Watch said today.