Forgive me...

[Ben]

*Originally posted by walor *
**I appreciate the need for happiness in all of us to some degree or extent. But is happiness our greatest need?

**

Did many- or any- atheists say that personal happiness was our greatest need?

**
Where does forgiveness figure in the lives of atheists? Is not forgiveness a greater need than happiness?

**

Why do you want forgiveness?

Could it be that you’re not happy unless you get it?

**
(Also, how do atheists deal with their need for forgiveness given that they do not have Jesus to turn to, as do Christians for example.)

**

Let me draw an analogy:

As a non-Buddhist, how do you deal with your need for satori?

It’s always been my impression that certain Christian sects are very, very heavy into the idea that their religion is all about guilt and forgiveness. The problem is that it makes Christianity into something akin to a mouthwash company: it invents a problem, makes people all worried about it, and then sells them the cure. I don’t believe in Original Sin, I don’t believe that I will burn for an eternity in hell for the slightest taint in my soul, so I don’t feel a need for a sacrifice that will somehow make my sins disappear. I don’t even believe in “sin” in the sense that Christians do- while I believe that some actions are moral and others are immoral, I don’t believe that immoral acts cause a sin substance to adhere to your soul, in need of removal. If I do something wrong, I seek to make amends. If someone wrongs me, I forgive them, if they are truly contrite. Jesus himself instructed you to do as much, and condemned the Pharisees for going to God for forgiveness for sins against their neighbors. Why, then, do you ask atheists how they can find forgiveness without God, when Jesus has already told you the answer?

If I might ask you a question, what was the point of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross? What does God’s forgiveness accomplish?

-Ben

[Ben]

*Originally posted by walor *
** Therefore, I personally find it difficult to believe that we don’t all have things that we regret or wish we hadn’t done, even if we don’t use the word of God as our guide!

**

Did any atheist here say otherwise?

I realize that you say you’re genuinely interested in learning about the atheist position, but in light of some of your misunderstandings, I must conclude that your preaching-to-listening ratio at times seems problematically high.

**
War, oppression, self-centredness, ‘me first’ mentality, look out for number one, ‘good guys finish last’…

Just think about the money we spend annually on locks, security sytems, police & law enforcement, the courts, the prison system… billions and billions of £/$ to protect ourselves from each other. What a sad world. Somebody’s doing all that stuff… somebody needs forgiveness!

**

Yes, and in America it’s mostly Christians. Our jails are full of them, you know.

**
With no judgement to face, why bother asking anyone for forgiveness for anything… after all, it doesn’t matter.
…
Yet, the above non-caring approach would seem to make perfect sense in a world without God.

**

I find this shocking, every time I hear a Christian say it.

Is your love for your neighbor no more than the execution of a duty which God has arbitrarily imposed on you?

Again, given how often your posts in this thread disagree with the real meaning of Christianity, I have to wonder if it’s the atheist position you need to be studying.

-Ben

[Spiritus_Mundi]

g8rguy
I was trying to follow walor’s delineation for original sin. My opinion, obviously, is that there ain’t no such thing.

[walor]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ben *

*Originally posted by walor *
**Therefore, I personally find it difficult to believe that we don’t all have things that we regret or wish we hadn’t done, even if we don’t use the word of God as our guide! **

Did any atheist here say otherwise?

I think several atheists asked me the question… ‘Forgiveness for what?’ Rightly or wrongly, I took this as a indication that they were not aware of anything that required forgiveness. If I misunderstood their intent with the question, then I apologise.

I realize that you say you’re genuinely interested in learning about the atheist position, but in light of some of your misunderstandings, I must conclude that your preaching-to-listening ratio at times seems problematically high.

On reflection, I think you’re right here. My only plea in mitigation would be that many of the postings appeared to ‘challenge’ me to declare my viewpoint or made an outright request for a response rather than being a statement or explanation of the atheist position.

When I am called to respond, I am likely to explain my position (preach if you like) as a Christian. I didn’t set out to preach but I’m learning slowly that threads are often subject to deviation from the OP.

**War, oppression, self-centredness, ‘me first’ mentality, look out for number one, ‘good guys finish last’…

Just think about the money we spend annually on locks, security sytems, police & law enforcement, the courts, the prison system… billions and billions of £/$ to protect ourselves from each other. What a sad world. Somebody’s doing all that stuff… somebody needs forgiveness!**

Yes, and in America it’s mostly Christians. Our jails are full of them, you know.

I’m tempted but will refrain from biting at this little morsel.

With no judgement to face, why bother asking anyone for forgiveness for anything… after all, it doesn’t matter.
…
Yet, the above non-caring approach would seem to make perfect sense in a world without God.

I find this shocking, every time I hear a Christian say it.

Is your love for your neighbor no more than the execution of a duty which God has arbitrarily imposed on you?

It is shocking but the question was asked so that atheists could explain thier position on this idea. Several have done so.

And no is the answer (hope you don’t take this as me preaching to you). I love my heighbour because I have been given a ‘new life’ by the Father who loves me unconditionally.

Again, given how often your posts in this thread disagree with the real meaning of Christianity, I have to wonder if it’s the atheist position you need to be studying.

Funnily enough, as the OP myself, that’s what I set out to do… study the atheist position!

[walor]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi *
**

Incidentally, we all get the chance to follow it too… it’s our choice… repent of our sins, accept Jesus as our saviour and follow himback to the Lord. We are then ‘born again’… but this time… spiritually, not physically. **

So when that happens is a person cleansed of original sin? If so, doesn’t that invalidate the “state of being” argument for born again Christians? If not, doesn’t that make this process irrelevant to the questino at hand (free will == original sin == sinner even if no sin is actively committed)?

Well, this is my take on it.

We take the leap of faith and become ‘born again’. Our sins are washed away. In other words, Jesus just picked up the tab for my wrong doings up to that point.

I am still inherently sinful however but now I chose to follow the Lord’s path, not my own. As I do so, and endeavour to live life as Jesus would have done, so begins the process of my ‘sanctification’.

I will still sin as I go along… I’m inherently sinful and I’m trying to unravel the ‘habits’ of my previous life. That’s not an easy assignment for any of us. Some of this stuff is deeply ingrained! Whenever I do sin, assuming I’m aware of it, I must then deal with it from my new-found Christian perspective.

**
2. Of course he could suffer mortal death. He did… as per my previous response, he was human. He died on the cross (physically).**

Then how can you claim that mortal death was the consequence of original sin? If Jesus was not tainted by original sin, He would not suffer the consequences of original sin. Therefore he could not suffer mortal death.

Good question… the two appear to be incompatible.

However, Jesus Christ has come to save the rest of us and clear a path back to God. We need to be sinless in the sight of God. Jesus needs a method to accomplish this.

He does this through self-sacrifice… he ‘choses’ to die on the cross in order to pick up the tab for ‘our’ sins.

At that moment, when all of our sins fall on him, he is separted from God, just as we are. Through this act, he has truly felt the whole human experience. Until that point, he was entirely sinless, now he carries the burden of our sins… and he choses to do that because he loves us. He is allowing his own death, to do God’s will… which is to save us!

[Flymaster]

*Originally posted by walor *
**And no is the answer (hope you don’t take this as me preaching to you). I love my heighbour because I have been given a ‘new life’ by the Father who loves me unconditionally.
**

Again, here you’re saying the only reason you love your neighbor is because God loves you. If this is indeed so, then you should probably be reexamining your priorities in life.

[Dangerosa]

Or, a little less confrontationally, if you stopped knowing God’s unconditional love (and I know this won’t happen, but IF), would you still love your neighbor? Most of the atheists here do - and they don’t have God’s love overflowing and warming them to their neighbor.

[MrO]

No offense at all, Flymaster; I tend to agree. But–

Dangerosa, that was beautiful. This isn’t sarcasm.

[walor]

*Originally posted by Dangerosa *
**Or, a little less confrontationally, if you stopped knowing God’s unconditional love (and I know this won’t happen, but IF), would you still love your neighbor? Most of the atheists here do - and they don’t have God’s love overflowing and warming them to their neighbor. **

1. I’m sure that atheists are able to love their neighbour… remember, I was a non-believer myself until relatively recently and so I understand many things from the non-believers perspective. I don’t believe that Christians are the only folk who are capable of loving others. My parents and children are non-believers and they love me with a passion which is reciprocated.

Maybe my words have been misleading?

2. Since becoming a Christian, I have learned that I need to love all of my neighbours and not just those that I chose to have relationships with. This is more difficult for me than you imagine. Let me try to explain.

Before becoming a Christian, I had a circle of friends (no cites for this, but perhaps you’ll take my word for it).

I also had a circle of acquainances.

There was a whole bunch of people to whom I was indifferent. We just ‘passed on by’ so to speak.

There was a group of people who I suspected were out there, somewhere, but I had never met them and probably never would.

And then… there was a group of people who were either not members of my fan club or vice versa. However warm, loving and compassionate I was, they did not hold a positive place in my world.

As a consequence, I may have found myself thinking, doing or saying things that I will euphamistically describe as ‘not loving’ towards them.

I don’t feel that my ‘friendship’ profile, as described above is exceptional, in the sense that I’m sure many folk reading this thread would probably identify with it.

The difference now is that Jesus has taught me that I need to find it in myself to love all of those people… even those who may harm or offend me. That’s a tough assignment. I’m not used to it. It’s not how I behaved for the bulk of my life.

I remember some years ago a TV interview. It followed an act of terrorism. A man who had just witnessed his daughter being blown away was asked what his immediate thoughts were. One of his comments puzzled me. He said that whilst he was filled with great sorrow and grief, he forgave the perpetraitors.

My reaction then would have been one of great anger tinged with a desire to seek revenge and inflict pain back on those who pained me. As a Christian, I am challenged to deal with such events as that man did… by showing forgiveness and a lovingness (not sure this is a word) in my approach… tough assignment! It is made easier in the knowledge that Jesus has been willing to forgive and love me (and everyone else) unconditionally.

[andros]

walor:

If your faith in the Christ encourages a love and respect for all humans, I’m all for it.

But faith in Christ is not required to love and respect everyone.

[Dangerosa]

Walor,

My background is Christianity, but I am now a non-Christian Unitarian. Many spiritual and humanist teachings follow the worldview you describe. Buddhism, for instance, is the granddaddy of “harm none” religions.

I’ll second Andros, if Christianity makes you a better person - go for it, its doing what religion does best. But for many of us, Christianity is not needed to make you the best human you can be. As a Christian, you almost will certainly disagree, its one of the problems us non-Christians have with Christianity.

I appreciate that you were a non-Christian. I think by now all of us do. But because Christianity helped you gain a “harm none” worldview, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist out there sans Christianity. You might have found the same spiritual peace of mind through Buddhism or Wicca or something else. Or maybe just by discovering your self and your place in the world.

[Ben]

*Originally posted by walor *
**
I think several atheists asked me the question… ‘Forgiveness for what?’ Rightly or wrongly, I took this as a indication that they were not aware of anything that required forgiveness. If I misunderstood their intent with the question, then I apologise.

**

If I might offer a few words of explanation, it seems to me that I’ve met a lot of Christians who say they want to understand the “atheist viewpoint” (which is a bit like asking a Christian and a Muslim to jointly explain “what theists believe.”) The problem is that they come to the table with so many negative preconceptions that they’re bound to put their foot in their mouth and make the atheists angry. Imagine a conversation between a White guy and Black guy:

W: So, like, could you help me out? I really want to understand the Black position on things.

B: Uh, ok…

W: So, like, how do you get the kind of satisfaction that White people get from a career?

B: Huh? What do you mean?

W: Well, you know, I’m sure you make a lot of money robbing liquor stores, but is it really satisfying on an emotional level?
You see what I mean? You say you want to understand the atheist position, but you keep interjecting your own prejudices into the conversation as if they were facts. For example, if an atheist says he doesn’t feel a need for forgiveness, and that position doesn’t make sense to you, the appropriate response isn’t to preach about how atheists are mistaken if they think they’re sinless, and now that you’re a Christian you realize how sinful you really are, etc. etc. The appropriate response is, “I’m afraid I don’t understand. Could you explain in more detail?”
Here’s a quote of yours from an earlier post:

**
I’m tempted but will refrain from biting at this little morsel.

**

Then let me put it another way.

Here’s another bit, where you explained your argument further:

"We need law enforcement and police and the billions of £$ that they consume to protect ourselves from ourselves! What a sad indictment of human attempts to figure out for ourselves what’s right and wrong! "

Do you think the Israelites had no crime?

**It is shocking but the question was asked so that atheists could explain thier position on this idea. Several have done so.

And no is the answer (hope you don’t take this as me preaching to you).

**

Of course I don’t. On the other hand, if someone explains their morality to you, and you explain at length that their system of morality has led to a catastrophic failure… that starts to seem like preaching. Perhaps if you phrased it more as, “It seems to me that…” rather than “Obviously you’re wrong because…”?

** I love my heighbour because I have been given a ‘new life’ by the Father who loves me unconditionally.

**

How does one logically follow from the other?

**

Again, given how often your posts in this thread disagree with the real meaning of Christianity, I have to wonder if it’s the atheist position you need to be studying.

Funnily enough, as the OP myself, that’s what I set out to do… study the atheist position!
**

You’ve clearly misread me. What do you think I was trying to say with my above quote? It’s hard for me to see how your answer follows from my entire statement.

-Ben

[Ben]

*Originally posted by walor *
**

1. I’m sure that atheists are able to love their neighbour… remember, I was a non-believer myself until relatively recently and so I understand many things from the non-believers perspective.

**

Again, your negative prejudices are coming through. Walor, since I’m a non-believer, and you understand my perspective, why not tell me how my system of morality works? If you understand the “non-believers perspective”, why are you making a pretense of asking non-believers for their perspective?

The problem is that you make the mistake that so many converts to Christianity make: you assume that anyone who isn’t a Christian must be as lackluster as you yourself used to be.

**2. Since becoming a Christian, I have learned that I need to love all of my neighbours and not just those that I chose to have relationships with.

**

What makes you think atheists never do the same?

**My reaction then would have been one of great anger tinged with a desire to seek revenge and inflict pain back on those who pained me.

**

Do you think non-Christians would all respond in that fashion?

**As a Christian, I am challenged to deal with such events as that man did… **

If you don’t mind me asking, is that to say that you’ve lost family members to terrorist attacks?

-Ben

[walor]

Ben

I will be away from the boards for the next couple of weeks. Your last two postings on this thread are much appreciated and I am not be able to respond to them in full because of other demands on my time prior to my departure.

By the time I get back, the thread may well have died but I would just like to clear up a few things:

I have studied the whole thread to review my contribution. I believe that my tone has, at times, been one of ‘I now know best’. Predjudice is a real barrier to understanding and is non-productive in a debate. There is a fine line somtimes between predjudice and passion. My only ‘defence’ would be that it had not been my intention to respond that way. It’s a bit like body odour, as a problem. Sometimes, the person with the body odour is the last to know. Thanks for the prompt. It’s good to reflect on these things.

I checked out my preaching-to-listening ratio (sad I know but I did this for my benefit more than anything else).
Total postings in thread = 93
walor postings = 13 (includes multiple response postings)
Direct poster questions answered = 14
Direct challenges answered = 4
walor question asked back = 1
Agreement with or acceptance of poster viewpoint = 2
Thank you to poster = 1
Outright, high-horse preaching = 2

I suspect that some poster questions were probably rhetorical in the sense that they maybe did not expect or hope for a reply. It may have been more a way of expressing a their viewpoint. I probably took this as an opportunity to express my faith on too many occaisions. As a newbie to the board, I guess I’ll learn by my mistakes as I have done in life. Just hope I don’t upset too many people as I learn.

I accept your point that it is too easy for Christians to assume that all atheists think or behave the same way. Worse yet, to assume that all non-Christians are atheists. My suspicion is that some ahteists are closer to my Christian-based faith than some so called ‘delared’ Christians. In he same way, it is sometimes all too easy for non-Christians to tar all Christians with the one brush.(IMHO)

Finally, no I haven’t lost family members to a terrorist attack. I pray that I will never have to face such a tragedy. What I do know is that my faith would be severely tested at that point. All the words in the world would count for nothing… it is through my deeds that I would be judged. My heart went out to the guy of whom I spoke and I was greatly impressed by his deeds that day. I pray that I could be that strong too.

It is time for me to go… adios for now.

[walor]

Oooops…

For 93 read 73!

(Better check the rest of my maths as well!)

[Ben]

*Originally posted by walor *
**Thanks for the prompt. It’s good to reflect on these things.

**

Thank you for being so open to criticism. I’m sorry if I seemed testy, and I hope you can understand why I might have sounded so.

**
My suspicion is that some ahteists are closer to my Christian-based faith than some so called ‘delared’ Christians.

**

Just a suspicion? Of course some atheists are closer to your faith than some so-called Christians! Do you really think that there are no atheists whose beliefs are closer to your own than those of, say, Fred Phelps? Pat Robertson? There are plenty of evil Christians out there.

**
In he same way, it is sometimes all too easy for non-Christians to tar all Christians with the one brush.(IMHO)

**

Yes, indeed.

Finally, no I haven’t lost family members to a terrorist attack. I pray that I will never have to face such a tragedy. What I do know is that my faith would be severely tested at that point. All the words in the world would count for nothing… it is through my deeds that I would be judged. My heart went out to the guy of whom I spoke and I was greatly impressed by his deeds that day. I pray that I could be that strong too.

Sorry about that- the phrasing of your earlier post made your experiences and your position unclear.

-Ben