Formula One Debate: Ferrari at the A-1 ring

Great Debates
1

Rubens (both of them!) pulls over just before the finish and lets Michael take the win! Fans go ape-shit, booing and otherwise vocalizing their dis-pleasure.

Now, long before the finish, the know-nothing announcers on the broadcast I was watching brought up the issue of team orders. They quickly dismissed the idea that Rubens (both of them!) would be asked to pull over, citing that it would “shatter his confidence”! I told my wife, “Bullshit! He’ll park that Fiat and Michael will take the 10 points, because this is big business and they need to secure the Driver’s and manufacturer’s title. There is a staggeringly large amount of money behind this.” As far as Rubens (both of them!) confidence goes, well, shit! He just signed a contract extension! He has all the confidence he needs on paper, signed by the team!

Rubens (both of them!) and Michael both say they are not happy with the decision, but acknowledge an understanding why it was made.

The British Press is giving the team and Schumacher grief over the decision. They claim the move hurts the sport. They also insinuate that Michael is full of crap about not agreeing with the move. The press claims that he has the clout to have ignored the order without fear of reprisal.

Debate part: Do team orders hurt the sport?

I say no. Sure, its a “sport”, but it is also a huge, multi-billion dollar business. The decision to hand the victory to Michael makes perfect and total sense to me. The team acted in its best interest to secure both championships. The team is footing the bills and paying the saliries, and should have the final say what happens. In no way does this mean the outcome of any race is predetermined. The cars still need to qualify, race and finish. Had Rubens (either of them!) crashed out on lap 9, there would have been no decision to make. Had there been no team orders, Michael may have blown up trying to catch and pass his teammate (and he would have, too!) It is up to the other teams to beat Ferrarri, and if they cant, too bad!

What do the rest of you F1 fans think?

2

and heres another thing: Don’t waste tears crying for Rubens (both of them!)

the sooner Michael mathmaticly clinchs the title, the sooner he will start handing wins to the brazilian, because Ferrari wants their drivers first and second!

gato predicts: 1-3 race victories will go to Rubens (both of them!) late in this season. If Michael doesn’t simply let him by late in the race ( I predict this will happen once), you will see Michael having “problems” in the pits that will cost him 6-7 seconds (coincidently just what either Ruben would need to pass him on the track) or some uncharesticly slow laps and mild dicing with his teammate, eventually settling for second. Either way, once Michael has the title in the bag, you can count on Rubens (both of them!) finishing one place ahead of him for the rest of the season.

(unless…they are BOTH behind Montoya or Ralfy-boy. Then I predict Michael smokes them both, robbing Williams of points. Rubens (both of them) really needs to worry about beating them.)

3

I’m not a Formula 1 fan, but I am a sports fan.

I think that even though both basketball and shoes are big business, if Nike decided that Jason Kidd was a bigger asset than Paul Pierce, and if they decided that the New Jersey Nets should beat the Boston Celtics in the Eastern Conference Final, and if they ordered Pierce to try to lose the game, and if he complied; then the sport was hurt.

I’m taking the position that a participant who is not trying to make their team win in a team sport and not trying to make themselves win in an individual sport is hurting the sport. A governing body that allows it is allowing the sport to be hurt.

Is F1 racing usually seen as a team or individual sport?

4

1 is a Team sport. Both cars earn points toward the Manufacture’s championship, but the Drivers are sorta on their own. Naturally, it would do no one good to have teammates crash each other out in a battle for driver points (this has happened in the past)

There are “strict”* rules regarding on-track behavior. For example, car A1 and A2 (team A) cannot conspire to prevent car B from passing for a position. So, if A1 were in first, A2 in second place cannot “shield” him from a charging B in third place. Team orders are pretty much that- confined within the team.

  • meaning strictly enforced on all the lesser teams, but the stewards somehow overlook them when a certain M. Schumacher violates one. (just my opinion!)
5

It’s BS. It’s not sport when you pull over to let your teammate pass.

I can’t think of a sport that I have any respect for anymore. Well, maybe Curling.

6

So the one guy was winning the race, and his teammate was in second. Mr. Winner pulls over to the side at the end of the race and lets his teammate finish first, right?

I’m not sure why this should be a problem, they’re on the same team, and what’s good for the team is good for the teammate, right? How is this different from some basketball player being about to break a scoring record, and his teammates feeding him the ball? Granted it would be wrong for the opposing team to “oops, I dropped the ball into your hands… darn!” or something like that, but these guys are on the same team.

It’s like when Wilt scored a half-million points in one game, because he kept getting the ball.

Tenebras

7

Read the post race review at the best fun F1 site on the web.

8

As a long-time F1 fan, I have a big problem with what happened last weekend. I’m not naive enough to not understand why it happened, but as a spectator, it ruined the race for me.

I think the reason is that for some followers (myself included), it’s not a 100% team sport - I’m more interested in the individuals.

Also, it’s not black and white. If it was the last race of the season and Michael needed Rubens to move over to clinch the title, that’s one thing. But it wasn’t. Rubens (unusually and therefore interestingly) outperformed Michael consistently over the weekend. Michael is ahead in the championship and it is very early days yet, so there was no need.

Bottom line? Ferrari lost a lot of respect from pretty much every F1 afficionado I know (and I know quite a few; it’s a popular sport in the UK, where a lot of the teams are based).

9

Things like this have happened in American sports, and the perpetrators got a lot of crap for it.

Michael Strahan’s “sack” of Brett Favre last season to get the sack record was a joke, and I’m a Giants fan. Favre gave him the sack because Michael is his friend, and tainted the value of the record.

There was also an incident where a girls high school basketball player (I believe) was on the verge of getting some sort of big scoring record. The other team basically allowed her to get an uncontested layup to get the record. I think she may have been injured, or some such thing… The original owner of the record (presumably) got her points by playing, not by charity.

Neither of these incidents affected the outcome of either game, but still are considered very bad form.

Team sport or not this sort of thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Question, do people bet on F1 races? If I had laid money down on Rubens to win, and saw this happen, I think my head would explode.

10

The difference, Cheesesteak, is that in the two cases you list, the other team allowed these things to happen.

11

How about Tour de France and other major bike races? There are team and individual titles, but the team members are clearly working to help the team leader at all costs, always sacraficing themselves for the sake of the team leader.

In bike racing, it’s well established as the way things work. Teams are fielded, not individuals. Does F1 field teams, individual cars (like in IRL), or individual drivers? Clearly, the drivers sign with the teams who field the cars.

As to the stuff that Cheesesteak mentioned, while the other team allowed this to happen most likely the records they broke were not set with the collusion of opposing teams. The fact that it was OK with Brett Farve may not sit well with the previous record holder. (IIRC, he was fine with it.)

12

I don’t buy this. You can say Rubens (both of them!) outpreformed Michael * for one lap* in the Saturday Qualifying session. Had there been no team orders, or had the Brazilian not been contractually the NO. 2 driver, and an “every man for himself” situation existed, I am confident that Michael would have beaten Rubens (both of them!) in the race anyway. It is obvious that both cars were not pushing well before the second stop. Had Michael needed to, he would have caught and passed the Brazilian on his own. There is a reason Michael is a 4-time World Champion and holder of the all-time win record and Rubens (either on of them!) only has 1 carreer win. I believe both these drivers know full well their place in the team, and Michael knew he didn’t have to “beat” his No. 2 driver. Had he needed to, he would have and could have spanked him like a little girl!

That was a moot point, however. Michael did not have to push, risking mechanical failure or an accident racing with his own teammate, because for the best interest of the team , he did not have to.

Cheesesteak: Your example is a good one of unacceptable behavior from another team. It would be abhorant for another team to lay down to allow a victory, but that was not the case in Austria. The Ferrari team mandated that one member of the team take maximum points to insure the best possible outcome for the team at seasons end. As far as total number of victories for a particular driver, well, see my predictions above-- Rubens (both of them!) will get his just deserts and then some.

I think part of the whole problem is the hype that was built up over someone actually out-qualifying Michael. This mystique of “Rubens (both of them!) dominating the whole weekend” was crap! Sure, he snagged the pole. Sure he was fast and I don’t want to take anything away from his performance. As longtime fans know, qualifying is a tricky process and 3 minutes of bad luck can mean the difference between pole position and the 4th row. Like I said earlier, I believe that Schumacher could have won the race on his own if he needed to.

I think what we saw was a dominant performance by the Ferrari team. Remember, Irvine and Salo (where are they now?) were able to whip the field when behind the wheel of a Ferrari and Michael absent from the track.

She said she loved me like a brother. That’s great, cause she’s from Arkansas!

13

Since I know absolutely nothing about how F1 works, I will have to ask… Did the order of finish in this race have an effect on whether or not Ferrari wins the team trophy? I would have assumed that as long as Ferrari was 1-2, it wouldn’t matter, and that this decision only affects whether or not Schumacher wins the individual trophy.

Oh, and the basketball incident absolutely occurred with the collusion of the opposing team, but did not the slightest effect on the outcome of the game. IIRC, both teams allowed the other an uncontested basket, so the outcome wouldn’t be affected. The effect was entirely upon individual records, so the integrity of the game was supposedly upheld.

14

Cheese- to answer the question, No. The Ferrari team scored the maximum 16 points and it doesn’t matter who was first or second. All points scored by the team count towards the manufactures championship.

here is a link with a good explanation of why the team did what they did. They don’t want a repeat of the 1999 championship.

15

The individual points were probably what determined the order of finish. Rubens Barrichello’s position in the standings was guaranteed to move up to fourth place no matter which way he finished. However, even with a victory he would be far behind Ralf (not Michael) Schumacher’s third-place position.

Barrichello now has 12 points; he would have had 16 had he been allowed to win. R. Schumacher has 23 points. Either way, Barrichello is still more than a second-place finish from taking over third place.

Of course, now he’s at least two races away whereas a second first place finish at the next race could have put him ahead of Ralf and close on the heels of Montoya. A 1-2 finish in the points race for Ferrari would be shit-hot, but probably a little bit unrealistic.

I guess we’ll have to wait until the end of the season to see what happens. If Schumacher somehow stumbles for the rest of the season and squeaks a fifth title by less than four points, I suppose it was a wise decision on the part of Ferrari, even though it will be a hollow title for Mike. If, on the other hand, Barrichello falls short of third (or whatever place he misses) by four points or less while Schumacher coasts to victory on the momentum he already has, then I suppose it’s a pretty crummy thing to do to Barrichello.

The most important thing to remember is that Barrichello is paid to play second-fiddle to Schumacher, and paid well indeed. Ferrari isn’t going to tolerate the sort of Prost/Senna bullshit that nearly got both of those guys killed. In my own mind, the Suzuka fiasco was a far greater marring of the sport than this incident. I suspect that Suzuka was in the back of some Ferrari decisionmaker’s mind when the order was given.

However, that does not mean I do not find the incident completely disappointing.

16

I don’t really know anything about F1 racing but it would seem that Michael Schumacher himself disagrees with your assessment (not to mention most pundits).

17

One of the problems with my accepting this as a reasonable act is that there are so few comparables in American sport. The desire to get individual awards can be helped by team effort, but usually only in an indirect manner, additional playing time, or just a larger role in the strategy, for instance. Team members really don’t have to give up their own goals for the benefit of other team members.

I can now better appreciate the team aspect of it all, and the desire to help one team member win a big award, especially since Rubens is really there to help Schumacher and Ferrari win, not just himself.

What I really think makes this situation distasteful is that, at the end of the race, Rubens wasn’t trying his best. It is driven into us at an early age that winning isn’t necessarily the most important thing as long as you do your best. To watch a competition where one of the participants is obviously not trying at all is disturbing.

18

Sofa- well said!
Whack- I am sure Michael knows what really was happening that weekend. I also think that he is diplomatic enough to know how to deal with the press. Had he come out and say, “I could have beaten him anytime I wanted to!” ( and I believe he could have, but that is only my opinion) he would have looked even more like an ass in the eyes of the fans.

I wonder where Rubens (both of them!) falls on the list of “Richest Brazilians”. I would guess he is right up there towards the top, and as far as fame in the sport, he is second in his country only to that other Brazilain F1 driver, mentioned by Sofa.

19

I’d really like to know what Barrichello’s understandings with Jean Todt were, written or not. Did he get promised the chance to race, or only that he’d always be Schumacher’s buttboy? I wouldn’t object to Ferrari cutting his balls off in Austria if he had already sold them off - but he showed no signs of that.

But as a fan, and not a tifoso either, I assure you, it still sucked. Barrichello not only won the pole, but led the entire race even. Schumacher wasn’t “loafing”, he didn’t even qualify 2nd, and I saw nothing to suggest he wasn’t trying his damndest to win - he’s too intense a competitor. Rather, he simply never has gotten the knack of the A-1 Ring, never having won there. But Barrichello, who has paid his dues over the years with only 1 career win to show for it, did everything right and deserved to win. Even the Ferrari fans, snotty poseurs all, booed and whistled.

FTR, it is not “very early” in the season - it’s more than a third over, and there is no real possibility of Schumacher losing the title, barring another major injury like his broken leg in 1999. The claims by Todt and Brawn that they had to protect the lead shows a serious problem in understanding the importance of fans to the sport. That’s the one thing I give NASCAR credit for when comparing it to F-1 - they’re fan-centric, F-1 is just fan-tolerant.

I don’t watch the races to keep score, I watch the races to see racing. Drivers should help their teammates when it doesn’t detract from their own efforts, but they should be allowed to race. But Ferrari made a mockery of the sport, under the circumstances. I hate them even more now.

Sofa King, thanks for the Suzuka link. Check out 1995 in Adelaide, and his forcing of Damon Hill’s crash that gave him the title then, for another. Suzuka was simply the most egregious example of Schumacher’s history of profound assholishness. There have been a number of cases of his forcing his competition into crashes, and blaming them for not getting out of his way, while accusing anyone who tries to block him of trying to kill him. I do think he’s outgrown it now, but his team hasn’t.

20

Elvis- great points! Especially the contrast between how fans are viewed in F1 and NASCAR. I sometimes wonder if the fans enter into the equation at all in F1.

I disagree about Schumacher having a lock on the title at this point. Anything can happen. Yes, it would be unlikely, but with guys like Yoong on the track, anything is possible! I do believe both Ferraris were sandbagging well before the second stop. Remember, Michael set the fastest lap (didn’t he, if memory serves?) and I believe had he wanted to, could have easily passed Rubens (both of them!)

I stand by my belief that team orders do not hurt the sport. It is my understanding that the sport is about a team producing the most advanced racecar within a framework of existing rules, and using it to defeat the other teams. I am a Ferrari fan because they are the only team out there that produces their own chassis and engine, and produces road-going cars. Call me old-fashined, but thats how I like my F1. Sure, Williams and McLaren are great teams, but they buy engines from outside manufaturers and only exist to build the racecars. I think Ferrari is the last of the true F1 teams and I like seeing them spank the world! I’m not neccessarily a Schumacher fan, but since he has been a huge part of the return to glory for the Scuderia, I am happy to see him win. I don’t really care if he wins the Championship or not, and if Sato or Massa (and he just might!) drove the red car, I would probably root for them.