Fox Hunting

In My Humble Opinion
1

It looks as though the UK is about to ban fox hunting. I try to keep up on British politics, but I haven’t really heard the arguments for or against this very classic sport.

I’ve been a few times when I lived in the UK for awhile, was rather expensive, but was fun just for the chance to ride and to get out into the English countryside.

Back here in the U.S. I hunt fairly regularly. Squirrel, deer, turkey, and bear.

Personally I don’t really feel there is anything even morally objectionable about doing it.

Everything I kill in the woods I eat. I see no reason why it should be illegal for a person to hunt his own food. Just “because we have supermarkets” is no real counterargument. That’s like saying “we have cars, why ride a bike” or “why walk when you can ride a car?”

Now I’ll be the first to say that hunting should be regulated, and we should never be permitted to hunt endangered species or even threatened species.

But here in VA, and I know for a fact in WVa (another place I hunt every year) deer are extremely overpopulated. Both states kill about 80,000 deer a piece each year, and every year we get a news paper article about how there aren’t enough hunters to control the exploding deer population.

The problem is of course, while the appalachians are a pretty big area, there are literally hundreds of thousands of deer. Thousands upon thousands die every year because there is no food for them, there are too many deer and not enough food to go around.

One of the reasons for this problem is the fact that wolves, mountain lions, and coyotes don’t really live in the area naturally anymore. At one time they did, and they would hunt and kill deer with a good deal of regularity.

There are still plenty of black bear, but black bear tend not to hunt larger animals like deer, so they do basically nothing to control the population.

One example I know of personally occured on Blennerhassett Island. [Historical aside, this island on the Ohio river was where Aaaron Burr and Herman Blennerhassett planned to set up an empire in the west. When the plan was destroyed, so was Blennerhassett. The island ultimately became a historical area, and many of the original buildings of the Blennerhassett estate remain unchanged. The island is a truly remarkable place, and I suggest anyone in the area give it a visit]

The island basically can support about 50 deer. Well, every year the deer population approaches 200. They’ve tried the humane way of dealing with it, that is, they capture and ship the deer to mainland WV. But it does little to control the problem, and I’ve even heard some of the staff on the island say they’ve seen dozens of deer swimming back across the Ohio to get back to the island.

I don’t know what solution they are using now, but 5 years ago it was suggested the staff be given free range to hunt as many deer as they can find.

The deer on the island are extremely sickly, undersized et cetra due to chronic malnutrition.

So anyways, back to the point, I think there are legitimate overpopulation problems that can be addressed by hunting. Animals like deer reproduce fairly rapidly, a problem that wasn’t that big when they had no natural predators, now it is a huge problem.

I also agree that hunting has hurt the environment in the past, many great animals have been driven to near extinction by reckless hunting. But I think properly regulated hunting is NOTHING but beneficial to the environment.

On another note, I agree with the practice in most states of banning Sunday hunting. I’m far more a “naturalist” than a hunter and love to hike through the woods with my camera, and it’s good to have a time even during hunting season that I can do that without hearing the sound of gunshot echoing through the hills.

2

Well, I don’t have a problem with going to drag hunting in the UK. All the hunt clubs around my area drag. That way you still get to use your hounds, but no animals are actually hunted or killed.

Is it that much less exciting to drag than to have live quarry?

3

Is there a fox overpopulation problem in the UK? I know they’re predatory carnivores, but are they a danger to domestic animals such as sheep, dogs & cats, etc? IOW, is there a benefit to hunting them other than purely for sport?

I’m not taking a position either way until I learn all of the facts.

4

A commentary:

5

One of the problems with UK Fox Hunting, was that the Hunters would often ignore private land and ride through places where they had no right to be in search of their quarry. As such it was somewhat like American Hunters feeling they could freely hunt on private land where hunting wasn’t wanted simply because the prey was there. Secondly the use of Animals to hunt other animals and to make the kill causes a certain amount of squeemishness. It is not clear if the Fox would die as quickly as by gun bullet. Also the fox is first forced to flee from pursuit and only killed when it gets exhausted. It would be somewhat like a rifle hunter firing paintballs at a dear then following it on horseback only to fire another paintball, until the dear collapses in exhaustion at which time it is shot to death with a real bullet. There is I think no reason to believe that the small number of Foxes killed by Fox Hunting with dogs effects the population of the foxes (which are pests especially if their numbers are high) actual pest control is achieved through poisoning (I believe).

6

Yes; the ban appears to be targeted at hunting with dogs - essentially, the fox is chased to exhaustion by a pack of dogs and people on horseback (only the people are on horseback, not the dogs AND people), then the fox is killed, often by being torn apart by the dogs.

It is a sport; entirely a leisure pursuit (albeit one with a rich culture and heritage); the fox population is not seriously controlled by this method.

The countryside lobby are right; I’m an ignorant townie (actually, I’m not a townie) and I don’t understand their ways.

7

The news stories I’ve read about this don’t say whether drag hunts would still be permitted in the UK. That’s what the local hunt club does around here, where development has gobbled up a lot of formerly open land. The Myopia Hunt in fact has certain well-defined routes it can (indeed, must) follow, with some variations. The hounds don’t seem to mind the lack of a fox to rend at the end, and the riders get plenty of galloping and jumping – certainly enough to maintain their reputation for reckless insanity.

8

I am afraid I took a tiny bit of pleasure at the police action in Parliament Square yesterday. I cannot understand why it is takes 50 gaudily-dressed people on horseback, as many dogs plus a few hundred people following on foot to rampage over the countryside just to track down and rip to bits a single fox, which might have been responsible for the deaths of the odd domestic chicken or duck.

It is suggested that, if a ban on hunting with dogs is introduced in England & Wales, nobody will obey it and the subsequent log-jam in the law courts initially prosecuting offenders and then dealing with them for refusing to pay their fines will show up the ban as being unworkable. Others claim their human rights will be infringed as they will have to slaughter all their hunding hounds (because, let’s face it, you could not keep them as pets).

I am not convinced by either argument. But then I am a city boy and the only thing urban foxes do is rummage through your rubbish and make disconcerting noises at inappropriate hours of the day.

9

You’ve obviously not been up all night with a shotgun in lambing season.

10

Are you saying that fox hunting removes the need for the farmer to stay up all night with a shotgun during lambing season?

Everything I’ve heard from neutral parties in the paper and on tv say that hunting isn’t a very effective form of fox control.

This is about money mostly IMO. There are a lot of people who will be hurt financially by this law. People are fighting for their livelihood which is commendable but doesn’t necessarily mean they are right.

I don’t really care one way or the other. This issue is a non-issue in Ireland. We have fox hunting and I don’t see it going anywhere soon as it just not on the political radar.

However the plain facts are that by a vast majority the law has been past several times and the public agree with it.

I liked seeing all the pro-hunt people(celebs and MP’s) on TV supporting the protestors some of whom I’ve seen condemning people for protesting against a war. Their attitude changes when they feel their comfy little life may be effected.

11

Fox hunting in England is seen as the preserve of the upper class. This acts as a red rag to the chattering classes, who despise the twits on the horses. I don’t think people on either side give much of a toss for the fox, besides those who were brought up on Basil Brush and think he’s cute.

Then there are the Animal Liberation people, who unite all sides - the twits, the chatterers and the fox - in thinking that we’ve been going after the wrong prey for the last five hundred years.

12

Two pieces - for and against

13

A few days ago a 13 year-old boy was shot dead in Devon during a night-time fox hunt where hunters use guns and “lamping” i.e. “the use of a strong light to transfix prey so it could be shot”. Apparently he was mistaken for a fox …

Could yojimbo please explain exactly how people will lose their jobs as a result of the ban? It will not be illegal to ride horses, wear red coats, blow hunting horns, keep and exercise hounds (provided they’re muzzled), etc etc. All that will be illegal is chasing foxes with dogs. If the Hunt is so much a part of tradition, I am sure ways can be found to keep it up. Like drag hunting.

And hare coursing will be illegal too. So just retrain the dogs for the greyhound track.

14

Is being killed by dogs that much worse a death than others? I’m sure it’s not pleasant. But other than euthanasia, are any means of killing animimals quick and pain/fear free? A gun shot would probably be quicker but only if you’re a good shot and get an immediate kill. Does that happen all that frequently? (I don’t know since I’m not a hunter.) Captive bold slaughter seems quick by itself, but the transportation to the slaughter house and moving through the process is probably pretty stressful for some slaughter-bound animals. I have no idea how quick or painless poison is.

15

They’re worried about people losing their jobs? Does anyone remember if the countryside alliance blocked roads and tried to storm parliament when the miners were getting shafted in the 80’s?

And no, before anyone says it, Fishing won’t be the next target.

16

I’m just repeating what all the pro hunt people keep banging on about. I can see why some idiots wouldn’t like drag hunting and may stop hunting as a result. If enough do then it will effect all the support people. IMO they have had enough time to look at other options so it’s not a great argument but one that they are using.

17

Anne Widdecombe ( one of the very few Conservative MPs to vote for the ban ) made a good point. She said the same arguments ,such as the loss of jobs , the loss of a traditional way of life and because " this has been going on for hundreds of years" was used in the last century when the abolition of slavery and the banning of 8 year old children working in coal mines was being debated by Parliament.

18

Of course I meant the nineteenth century. :smack:

19

The UK government’s enthusiasm to ban hunting with hounds is just bewildering: Why pursue an unenforcable piece of legislature, fueling a circus of media interest, when the vast majority of British people could not give a fuck one way or the other? :dubious:
No political capital to be made, methinks.

[Aside, which MPs are the driving force behind these anti-hunting bills? Could be the old guard of left wingers out to give the landed gentry some stick :wink: ]

It would be good to see the countryside alliance drop this vermin control BS and start coming clean about fox hunting as a sport: We enjoy it, we’ve done it for hundreds of years, and yes, it is cruel. So what? We’re not about to descend into a Spartan society through excessive fox-worrying FFS…

20

If I lived in the UK still and was a citizen there I doubt I’d have much opinion. While Fox hunting was a good one or two time experience, for me the only fun it it was in riding, because I hadn’t been able to get on a horse for several years due to time/work issues.

The fox isn’t an animal I would hunt here, though. You don’t eat them and I don’t find their fur particularly appealing in any way. I have such a strong affinity for deer and bear though, that I would be fairly outraged if the hunting of those animals was banned, since the meat is impossible to get without hunting.

Ultimately though I see little REASON to ban fox hunting. And when a person’s liberty isn’t really harming anyone else it is wrong to cut it back, whether it be liberty in regards to reading a newspaper or riding a horse around the countryside.

The arguments about accidents, illegal hunting et cetra aren’t really valid. You should target illegal actions, not classify a long standing tradition/right illegal just because some people who engage in it do so illegally.

That would be like making public protests illegal just because some people protest illegally.

What really sort of upsets me is most of the anti-hunting people don’t really have any real opinions on the actual act of hunting. They just dislike people who hunt, and people who enjoy hunting, it’s a form of snobbery at best and a form of bigotry at the worst.