DeGaulle. And the black death, the Hundred Years War, and the French Revolution were all worse.
Fuck the French. I had to look it up. Just saw the phrase somewhere else on the boards for the first time.
Why do some people think that expressing an idea in French to an English speaking audience is preferred? We have a perfectly apt phrase in English. Two wrongs do not make a right!
A bit hasty here. Fuck the Latin too.
It’s latin, but I’m with ya on everything else.
OK, it’s true - France is courting China in a big way right now - in fact I had to explain to my son why the Eiffel Tower was colored red on Chinese New Year, but didn’t even get a hint of green yesterday for St Pat’s. So yes, France is courting China, and competing with the US.
Now we’ve got that out of the way what the fuck is all this “moral high ground” talk. I’ve never heard such a flood of hypocritical horseshit. When did France ever claim morality had anything to do with it ? Did Chirac say the French navy was combatting terrorism and making China more democratic ? Did Chirac suggest that the joint naval exercises would help the Chinese find Jesus ? Ban same-sex marriages ? Lower taxes ?
So France is courting China. Big fucking deal.
This whole fixation on providing moral alibis for self-interested policies is half of what’s making the US look so bad these days. (That’s a little harder to explain to my son)
And omigod, France is turning its back on Taiwan out of self-interest ! I wonder who took the lead on that one ?
Bush Opposes Taiwan Independence
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105239,00.html
President Bush’s Muddled Policy on Taiwan
http://www.cato.org/pubs/fpbriefs/fpb-082es.html
Oh yeah, since this is my first post in the pit - fuck you all.
We’ll consider ourselves fucked.
With this, particularly? Never, AFAIK.
In discussion of global affairs in general, however France – like all other nations – claims to acting only in the interests of truth and goodness whenever it suits them. The Iraq War being the obvious example: all nations involved supported or opposed the war because of self-interest but sold it as a moral question.
Many here and elsewhere drank the Kool-Aid and came to the conclusion that the US went to war in (percieved by Bush) self-interest, France was opposing it out of love and concern for all humanity. Thus, France’s willingness to actively aid in the Chinese intimidation effort (and I note that nobody here is denying that that is what’s happening) is a rebuttal to those prone to looking at Paris through rose-colored glasses.
furt, it is the OP who says the French are immoral bastards and it is a patently ridiculous assertion. In general terms France is no worse and no better than anyone else. Now, in the specific case of Iraq, both France and the USA could act out of self interest but that is not the point, the point is “who is right?”
When you steal my wallet and we go to court it is a given that we are both acting out of self interest so when I invoke the law which says you can’t steal other people’s property for you to answer that I am invoking the law out of self interest is just a non-argument. Of course I am quoting the law out of self interest!
The fact is that the USA attacked a country without any justification and that France was 100% right to say it was wrong for the USA to do that. The fact that France may have an interest in the matter does not change the fact that the USA initiated a war of aggression which is an act which goes against the UN charter and against what peaceful nations should stand for.
Asteroide, welcome to the SDMB. I expect you will get along fine with Adebaran 
Well, that’s obviously another discussion; my point was that in that discussion, I at least have often heard it said or implied that the countries opposing the US did it from altruism.
Jesus H, what sort of response is that? Sailor’s point, ISTM, is that the supposed hidden motivations of the countries that opposed the damn fool war are completely freakin’ irrelevant at this point. They were right, the US was wrong, and it’s pointless to argue that the French maybe would have pretended that the US was right given some other hypothetical set of circumstances.
In your opinion. I happen to think Bush is as honest as a politician can be and dead-on in foreign affairs. I also think y’all are willingly blind and deluding yourselves. But then, you libs have always been bone-heads.
I suspect the former and know the latter is true. Hell, they are worse than the Islamofascists. I never expected anything good to come from those nuts; I expected the French to actually live up to their words and to their commitments.
But that’s fine. The traitors, the weak, and diseased flesh has been exposed and weill be shunned from now on. Meanwhile, real allies who know what its like to fight evil and not suck its cock are signing on. You libs may think its funny to piss all over the name of Romania, Britain, and Poland, Australia, and Japan. I think youa re sick,m disgusting monsters. In the future, my children will look back and wonder how insane abominations like yourselves could ever have been created from such a great nation.
Racist? The Franch and I share the same race, fool. I have met French people. I also read their newspapers and watch their political goings-on. And quite frankly, I want to know what mental disease has taken hold of them.
GeeDubya is honest? You look us in the eye, and with a straight face, say this? Do you have even the slightest awareness of the avalanche of horseshit that has come tumbling out of his lips? “Honest”? Lord love a duck.
“…Meanwhile, real allies who know what its like to fight evil and not suck its cock are signing on. You libs may think its funny to piss all over the name of Romania, Britain, and Poland, Australia, and Japan…”
Mmmmm, might want to double check Poland’s status. Seems they’re having a bit of “buyer’s remorse”. The unflinching solidarity of Britain and Australia looks a bit shopworn as well. However, the stalwart Seychelles Islands remain quite firm in thier defiance.
“…I think youa re sick,m disgusting monsters…” You may be right. I blame society. And welfare queens, Jane Fonda and the homo agenda.
“…my children will look back and wonder how insane abominations like yourselves could ever have been created from such a great nation…”
Unless you send them to college. Then they’re ours! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha! And your precious bodily fluids are next!
I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that when evaluating the relative morality of a decision to go to war that “hidden motivations” don’t count? That morality is only measured by the ends and not the means? Also, what do you mean exactly when you say the US was wrong?
Oh come now. The world is not Sunnybrook farm. People are people and do things that are bad. This is not news.
The United States is not better than China because of its people but because of its institutions. The U.S. political and legal system is set up with the express recognition that people (even Presidents!) will fall short of the ideal and that, sometimes, people will even disagree on what the ideal is. That’s why a single federal judge can look the President and the entire executive branch right in the eye and say “Get stuffed.” It’s all about checks and balances. Individual may indeed suffer injustice in the meantime but while the mills of the system grind slowly, they grind incredibly fine. At least there is a method in place for correcting these injustices.
China, by contrast, has no such system. Indeed, in a very real sense, China, even today, has no system. The Chinese constitution adopted in 1978 made the startling guarantee that China would have laws. They’ve got a long way to go before they have institutions to go with them.
Shit happens. Shit always happens. The question is, do you have a system in place for cleaning it up when it does happen. The U.S. has one. China doesn’t.
Come again? Do you not detect a certain restlessness amongst certain segments of the population regarding U.S. actions in Iraq? Does not the recent Spanish election suggest to you how an unpopular foreign policy might be checked by the ballot box?
In China, by contrast, democratic expression would only be a check on an imperialist foreign policy in so far as the army had to re-assign a few tanks to squashing protestors.
But that’s not how it works, is it? The situtation you are describing wouldn’t mean Chinese and American power cancelling each other out, it would mean a return to sphere-of-interest realpolitik. Nobody really questioned the Soviet’s right to do whatever it wanted in its sphere of interest, e.g. Eastern Europe. In return, the U.S. got an effective pass from the Soviets in its sphere. One advantage, I suppose was that the superpowers kept their clients more-or-less in line – Sadaam would never have invaded Kuwait on the Soviet’s watch. But if he had gone rogue, the old Soviet Empire would probably have allowed the West to do exactly what it did in GWI.
The Chinese have ambitions for their own sphere of interest. It will be a very long time before the Chinese are either capable of or interested in military meddling in Europe or the middle east. But they’re already doing it in Asia e.g., their claim in the South China Sea. The bottom line is that a China at military and economic parity with the U.S. would not mean there would be less “imperialism” in the world, it would just mean that China would be doing half of it.
Being a “cowboy” isn’t a matter of official government policy, it’s about a poorly-trained military that gets involved in crisis situations without the permision of or even in spite of civilian authority, the mid-air plane collision a couple of years ago, for instance.
[QUOTE=sailor]
[QUOTE=Beagle]
China executes around 10,000 people every year. Why “around”? Their justice system is a no-justice system.
Where is that European “morality” vis-a-vis the death penalty? French morality is measured in Euros, obviously.n
[QUOTE]
Wait a minute! France has no death penalty. It is the USA who is in the same boat as China when it comes to the death penalty!
[QUOTE]
I think that was the point. Every time some rich socialite kills his girlfriend and runs to France, they put up such a fuss, You can’t have him because you’ll kill him! I mean this is the nationt hat prides itself on being the “Nation of Human Rights” and will give citizenship to (just about) everyone. Sheesh, if anyone should be held to a stricter criteria, it’s those hoity-toity frogs.
I’d like to take this moment to point out that KidChameleon and KidCharlemagne are NOT the same person.
That would perhaps be correct if Iraq was the single issue in all international relations. As it is, it is very worthwhile to note, as we move forward, that France seems to be putting themselves “on the other side” from the US more and more often, and in ways that cannot be explained by anything other than self interest.
To repeat what I said earlier: this does not necessarily mean France is evil. It is, however, indication number 1,247 that France is not a US ally in a meaningful sense. They feel very uncomfortable with America’s military, economic and especaiily cultural dominance of the world; and if I were French, I might well feel the same way. During the Cold War they kept a little closer to the US because of the Soviet threat; with it gone they are making it plain they do not wish to be in the US’ orbit, and indeed they wish to be a counterweight. Fine and good. We will be cordial, as we are with other nations with competing interests – China being the obvious example. They’re not an enemy unless they want to be, but they are not an ally, either.
Definately. If it were so, we’d work way too much and have way too many expenses. And our love life would be very confusing.
The “Kid” and “KC” abbreviations really won’t help in this forum, but I’m willing to bow to KidCharlemagne’s seniority and be “Kid2” or “KC2”.
This makes France exactly the same as the USA and as any other country. Countries are allies in the measure that they have common interests and this is true os every single country on earth. The same people who condemn France for looking out for its own interests would be outraged if the government of the USA did not do the same thing. Let us not be silly here. The USA has done much worse things than hold joint exercises with China and if it was in their interest they would do it beginning tomorrow morning. So the OP is just plain silly. France is no different from every other country on Earth and that includes the USA.
Are you even reading my posts? I’ve said the same damn thing myself several times, including in my responses to you.
If your disagreement is with the OP, please address him/her. If it’s with me, please explain whatever it is I’ve said which you disagree with. If you’re assuming I agree with every single word of the OP, or you are reading between the lines of my posts, please stop.
If you and I have said the same thing then it is safe to assume we agree on that thing. Chill out man.
Chill out man. Why do you assume I disagree with what you said when you just said we are saying the same thing? Now you complain I am not clearly saying I disagree with you. Look, read my post:
It means what it says. Take it at face value. If you agree with what I said then we are in agreement there. Or maybe I’m missing something?