I obviously disagree, and hope the day never comes when eliminating women’s reproductive rights becomes acceptable.
What do you consider a large number? 10? 100? 1000? 10,000? Any number of women being maimed or worse in opposition to a sick moral imperative is unacceptable. And please, before you mention it, I’m not interested in arguing the false equivalence of the rights of a zygote.
As many as 1/3 of conceptions fail to develop into fetuses (source: Power, Sex, and Suicide by Nick Lane.)
If so, and if this is the death of an indivual, that would make it the #1 cause of human deaths, a substantially bigger impact than abortion. Do you think we should invest heavily in research to address this huge problem?
In a much older thread, you said:
[QUOTE=Qin Shi Huangdi]
I don’t support imposing most of my religious views on society but this one’s critical as it’s the literal murder of millions of babies.
[/QUOTE]
“Millions” of babies are not aborted after they’re viable. It’s estimated that, of the 1 million (roughly) abortions per year, only 1% take place after the viability cutoff of 20 weeks. In other words, only about 10,000 abortions happen during the viability stage. Further, it’s estimated that most of those abortions are situations of birth defects or where the mother’s health is endangered… so the number of “convenience abortions” would be *well *below 10,000.
But let’s examine your statement a bit further- you say that abortion is the “literal murder” of babies. Why, then, do you feel that fines and community service are appropriate punishments? I mean, this is *murder *we’re talking about- why are you not insisting on imprisonment and capital punishment? What makes abortion different from killing, say, a child? Why don’t you insist that abortion should be treated exactly the same as capital murder?
How expensive is contraception? I was under the impression that it is basically free and readily available…been a long time since I needed a rubber.
I don’t think that abortion before viability (or arguably detectable brain wave activity, I need to look into the scientific data) is morally completely equivalent to first-degree murder but this doesn’t mean that I don’t think its the killing of innocent life that should be banned for most reasons.
To use an analogy (although fetuses are FAR more valuable than any animal), people don’t think animals are fully equal to humans yet they support laws against theirmistreatment.
Yes, if by free/freely we mean adults.
I lean to the right and I am a “Cafeteria Catholic” That being said I’ll keep my views on abortion to myself since I know that I would anger too many people on both sides. SO…to answer the question: YES! The Catholic hierarchy is foolish to think that birth control is “sinful” and should not be used. That’s my two cents.
Sure, though for the purposes of my hypothetical situation (see post #14) if this is restricted to only adults, then the number of abortions and the medical costs will be higher than if it was free and freely available to all. So how much do you want to lower the number of abortions? If handing out birth control to teenagers reduces the abortion rate, are you OK with that?
While, aside from my views on contraception, I can support free access to them by adults, minors are a different thing for me.
First of all because I’m not confortable with giving full access to hormones to underage irl still developing thwir reproductive system.
Second, I think that minors should require permission from their parents/guardians.
Been out of the country for a while…
So preventing minors from getting free access to birth control is more important to you than stopping abortions. Got it. This is the main question I was asking- which is more important?
It’s always possible for sex to result in pregnancy. This hasn’t been decided by Christian sex-moralists, as far as I can tell.
I’m tired with these arguments. Wondering whether a 7 days fetus, a 7 month fetus, a newborn baby should be considered human and should benefit from rights we grant to humans is a perfectly sensible question, and you don’t need to be a Christian moralist to wonder about this.
And you don’t need to be a Christian moralist to notice that the overwhelming majority of pregnancies result from an activity that people freely engaged in while knowing perfectly its possible consequences.
Thus, it’s perfectly reasonnable to ask whether people should be allowed to terminate a pregnancy or not. You don’t need to want to punish women or to repress sexuality. You just need to believe that, say, a viable fetus isn’t just
a clump of cells, and that people should live with the consequences of their actions. The former is an opinion that can’t be proven right or wrong, the latter is how we operate in almost all cases when dealing with legally responsible adults.
ahem bankruptcy laws. Or do you want to re-establish debtor’s prisons to truly make people responsible for their actions.
Say a woman is using a form of birth control which fails for no fault of her own. Still against abortion in this case? Is she still responsible? If you think so, then I assume you also think someone who injures someone while driving due to an inherent mechanical defect in the car should be fully liable. After all, it is a risk this person assumed.
Since whether a fetus is a human being is a matter of opinion, why inflict yours on someone else. As for consequences of her action, the woman is going to have to have an abortion. How is that not living with the consequences? If you think that the only acceptable way of having her live with the consequences is forcing her to carry the baby to term, you’ve pretty much proven DerTrihs point.
Don’t exist everywhere
Debtor’s prison is pointless. But there’s no obvious reason why a person should be able to discharge his debts.
Even though you could certainly open a new thread on this completely unrelated topic, you could just have said that people aren’t in all circumstances held liable for all their actions. It’s still generally the case.
I didn’t express any opinion about abortion.
Better. The fact that birth control isn’t 100% foolproof isn’t a secret. Sex can result in pregnancy, even with condoms, pills, etc…The overwhelming majority of people who have sex know that, which is exactly what I said.
If the birth control you used was inherently defective, you’re free to sue the provider.
But in your car example, if I’m the injured person, I certainly will want to be made whole. “That’s the car manufacturer’s fault, too bad for you” won’t be enough. In this case, I can be made whole again by the manufacturer. Which makes your example irrelevant, since our knowledge of biology doesn’t allow for an artificial womb operated at a condom’s manufacturer’s expense which would be the equivalent.
And anyway, again :
2)Sex always can result in pregnancy (for nitpickers, yes, except masturbation, homosexual sex, bestiality, etc…). Never stated too often.
I didn’t express any opinion about abortion.
You’re the one reasoning as if sex should be punished, here. The consequence isn’t “you got yourself pregnant, so you must suffer for it (be it through a medical procedure or childbirth)”. The consequence is (arguably) the creation of another human being with rights you cannot abrogate. It’s not about the sins of the parents, but about the (arguable) rights of the child.
What exactly is so undisputable about the lack of rights of a fetus or even baby (think of the rather common exposure of newborns in the past) that makes the only possible explanations for a support of said rights hatred of women or hatred of sex? Basically, I’m calling Der Trihs’s statement a strawman.
It is also possible to not care one bit about whether a person has been responsible about having sex or using birth control, but to believe that unborn humans should not routinely be killed.
That opinion can be sincerely held, without hating women and without believing that everyone should be forced to follow one’s religion.
Some of the answers to this thread are making me wonder whether people are against abortion because they think the fetus suffers during the procedure; the fetus’ soul has been promised a body/particular life story, and that promise has been broken; or that any potential new life should be developed at any cost.
I’m both pro-life and pro-choice.
I’m generally against abortion for probably a completely different reason than most people. I believe it hurts your state of mind. It is psychologically unhealthy and damaging. Of course, people often but not always find themselves wanting an abortion because of a pre existing psychologically unhealthy context. So there is a potential weighing of costs there. I wouldn’t actually legislate an abortion ban, because that would be at cross purposes with psychological and potentially medical health. But it should be advised against, and alternatives should be presented and well funded, and preventative measures such as birth control and sex education should be promoted.
In terms of the fetus, I think it is both ridiculous to overemphasize its importance in the early stages, and to underemphasize its importance in the later stages. Coming out of the vagina is not a magical turning point, it is merely a pragmatic one. I do think it is a lamentable thing for someone to kill a later stage potentially viable fetus rather than bring it to term and give it up for adoption. It would be odd to have excessively greater feelings for a baby that is the same level of development as another but happens to have escaped the body of the mother. There should definitely be laws to ease whatever suffering might happen in those cases. A late stage fetus should be treated at least as well as a beloved pet being put down, if not better.
Basically I think you should act responsibly to prevent unwanted pregnancy, and that mindset should be promoted. If you do have an unwanted pregnancy, it is better for both you and the fetus not to have an abortion, but it is also better not to be forced to carry the baby, and in fact if you do choose to carry, there should be resources to help you with that. If you do, unfortunately, decide to abort, both your psychological and medical health should be looked after, and the method of abortion should be conducted in such a way as to effectively minimize whatever suffering the fetus is capable of at that stage.
The women that use RU486 in most cases are not even pregnant. Too bad people spend so much time worrying about other’s sins, instead of their own. because some believe it is a human being because it has human life they get up on their Pharisee horse, but the same people don’t worry about the life of the child once born. And there is human life in most sperm, and decide for themselves that there maybe a human life lost in using RU 486. But seem to not care how many innocent people ,yes even unborn or even a fertile egg is killed during a war.
Hundreds of thousands human lives are lost during every ejaculation, wither one conceives or not.
What I mostly noticed about this thread was that the question for anti-abortion folks was immediately answered by pro-abortion folks anxious to tell us what anti-abortion folks think. Kinda like how threads addressed to Christians are usually drowned in a tide of rabid atheist snark. Ah well.
I do worry very much about not only the kids once they are born but the mothers/families during the pregnancy. I volunteer and contribute to groups that provide assistance and support to mothers and families during pregnancy and after the baby is delivered.
Yes, lots of unborn and born children are killed for one reason or another. I guess I don’t see why that is a good reason for allowing unborn human beings to be routinely killed, any more than the fact that people die in accidents or of diseases means it’s OK to commit murder.
By Law once the fertile egg becomes a person it is unlawful to abort. A fertile egg is no more a human being than a fertile egg a chicken!
I know many people who call themselves pro-life do not want to support the once born child, nor pay the taxes necessary to help the poor. A few dollars a year, by a few people does not cover the person from birth to adulthood. Nor do they help the Mother care for the child, nor do they value the Mother’s life. The money spent picketing the clinics, and traveling all over the country to Picket. The same time could be used to help a Mother with child care!