OK, so if in 40 years the arabs outnumber the Jews, can they vote in an islamic theocracy?
I am not as quick to abandon principled reasoning in the Middle East debate because without it you are basically left with “might makes right” and you will have to kill a lot of Palestinians (think of America’s genocide of American Indians) before they just accept your terms merely because you have bigger guns and there may come a day when you don’t have bigger guns.
While I don’t see the conveyance of ownership in the letter you cite I see an intent to to something, maybe even a promise to do something. The Brits made promises to the Palestinians too. They were double dealing and they didn’t give anything away in 1917. The link you cite to talks about this a little bit.
This is not to say that you don’t have a point but its not as clear cut a point as you might have hoped for.
cite please
I can see why Israel might not trust its neighbors. I am not sure how you get anywhere without any trust. But ten years of peace is still ten years of peace and there is nothing to keep the Palestinians from arming themselves right now. At the end of ten years, the Palestinians are fair game too and they might have gotten used to peace, they may have developed a taste for it. Of course you guys could just keep killing each other and maybe in a few million years there will be oil in Israel as well. Shouldn’t Jerusalem go to the UN? Give it to a bunch of Buddhists to run for the benefit of all mankind.
(1) I was responding to someone who said that the British transferred Jordan “without a peep from anyone” to indicate that they had owned Palestine and had the power to convey it. I think there is a difference between creating a state in the midst of a group of countries that acquiesce to the new state and the creation of a new state in the midst of a group of countries that are vehemently opposed to the new state. I thought we had resolved that the British didn’t actually OWN Palestine, they were more like stewards and that they had some duties and obligation with respect to how they dealt with the land.
(2) I’m pretty sure that there would not have been a war if the entirety of Palestine was just converted into a single country.
(3) Hrmm, didn’t Black September happen in 1970? It wasn’t the result of the creation of the state of Jordan.
cite please
You can try to make the argument that teh governments were complicit in the attacks but you can’t say that the fact that the government and citizenry do not have the ability to stop attacks coming from their borders means its OK for their neighbors to engage in wholesale slaughter. I don’t know what the answer is, how do you respond to an enemy that has surrounded itself with innocent civilians, do you just kill everyone immediately or do you allow the enemy to exact higher death tolls as you slowly and surgically kill the likeliest suspects with minimal collateral damage. Assymetric warfare is a bitch.
There is always the concept of reparations.
This sort of consequence being determined after the fact would be illegal in this country but then again Israel is not America.
I was inclined to think that the site was unbiased but I just read the link to the balfour amendment and thre was a right of return in that. The quote also mentions a massacre of Jews at Gush Etzion but does not mentions a massacre at Deir Yassein mentioned a few posts ago. The writing and tone sound reasonable but it doesn’t seem entirely balanced to me.
Yeah his post scared me a little bit.
My impression was that the vote for Hamas was more of a vote against Fatah corruption.
So most people under 40 are men or lesbians that fantasize about Angelina Jolie and Cameron Diaz?
True also in the occupied territories and in Egypt (on the other hand, I’m not sure at all it applies in Syria). Whence come most of the support they get from the population. Islamist organizations show themselves as being non-corrupt, efficient, able to provide much needed services, etc… all in contrast with the local authorities.
Once someone has seen honest, moral, and high working people build a school for their children, manage to get clean water in the neighborhood, give out food when his family is in dire need, and so on, they of course are going to think “Wouldn’t it be great if these people, who are doing so much for us with so little were actually in charge? We sure would be much much better of”.
I can’t see it as the least surprising. These are Americans we’re talking about. The evidence of their annihilation fantasies is everywhere.
Oops gotta go now, mod watching.
Which would be great if those fine people did not start lobbing rockets at the neighbouring State - it is peculiar.
Beirut was just fine - an oil terminal got bombed and a truck in a residential area that was carrying a water drill - I guess it looked like a rocket. Apart from that the place was fine - but a bit crowded.
As others have pointed out, Hezbollah were firing rockets from civilian premises.
Israel went to a lot of effort to get civilians to move out.
Israel could have cleaned up South Lebanon, and they were in the process of doing so, when they got called off. It probably would not have done much good as Hezbollah would have slunk away. Incidentally the North Lebanese are very frightened of Hezbollah.
I’m curious where you get your ‘facts’ from, they sound like propoganda, I’ve heard similar stuff before, and been certain that the speaker believed it.
It’s not a criticism, just that sometimes we pick up ideas that just aren’t based on reality and it takes a bit of time to shake them off. People you trust can tell you things that turn out to be untrue.
Sadly one learns not to trust what people say, hence the call for citation 
Well this thread has devolved into a basic Israel vs. Arab debate so I may as well throw my two cents in.
I find it hard to really align myself with either side. There are simply too many irrational religious people who worship land and ancient buildings. There are too many atrocities. Each news cycle is a race to the bottom in terms of the moral highground.
However, the Arab world really has balls. Usually if country A invades country B in a war of conquest and loses badly then country A isn’t a country anymore. At least they get razed to the ground or have their military destroyed or get occupied for awhile until they learn to play nice.
The Arab world tried to invade Israel and have their own holocaust not once but three times. And they’re pissed because Israel took some land for strategic depth. Oooook then…IMO the Arabs got off practically scot-free and should count their lucky stars they had the USSR to fall back on.
Haha.
So is the use of cluster bombs, eh?
I’ve never alluded to the ridiculous notion that Israel should sit there and get attacked. Israel has its right to defend its country in whatever it sees fit; I’m just pointing out that Israel’s disregard for the civilians in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon War will go down in the pages of history as barbarous. If you think otherwise, you’re kidding yourself.
Actually, you have, with your notion that Israel should not defend themselves if the terrorists use their own civilians as human shields.
No, I think otherwise because you are dishonestly misrepresenting the nature of the case.
I think the disregard by Hizbollah and Hamas of their own civilians is barbarous.I think deliberate attacking Israeli civilians is barbarous.
So are most of your posts, so the hell with it.
Regards,
Shodan
A search of the site turns up 30 citations referencing Deir Yassin, including this one.
Actually that was unfair of me I didnt mean to criticise any individual place or even size of place in the U.S.
My real point was and is that living in a continent wide country there are one hell of a lot of Americans who are incredibly naive about life and thinking in any country abroad, even English speaking western ones ,ask any citizen of Eire their opinion of "plastic Paddies "as they tend to call Irish Americans let alone those of more exotic cultures .
So that every shred of information received wether topical or reference is filtered through a media organisation or author.
It seems to be prevalant in U.S. media that news on its own is somehow too dull,it must be given some sort of slant to make a name for the journo or take a stance
even natural disasters have to have blame attributed to someone .
Brash and flash ,lets not let the facts get in the way of a good story and possible personal fame and an award for the reporter.
America has always been the front runner for this less then ethical and often shallow reporting and I can vouch for the fact that the U.K. media is fast catching up .
The self congratulatory attitude of the U.S. press is viewed with amusement and sometimes with contempt by many others in the world .
News events are not circus shows.
The receivers opinion is served up with the report and in the interests of balance this is as true for Jewish oriented news as any other.
Those with no personal experience of the subjects have nothing to “read between the lines” or" take with a pinch of salt" to help make their judgement on what they have just read .
With college courses and textbooks the authors opinions come into play,political and national bias and political correctness and unbelievably even ignorance can alter the whole hue of the subjects.
Many Irish histories demonise Britain,I have met more then a few Irish people who were nonplussed to say the least when they saw histories written outside of Eire and how different they were .
There are Indian histories that deny "the Black Hole of Calcutta"was an actual event
How many American histories even mention ,let alone realistically document the depth of organisation and involvement of Black Africans in rounding up ,holding ,disciplining and selling slaves?
Must go now ,was joking about souveneir buying ,never get them ,they re usually made in other countries (like Moroccan Brasswork made in Birmingham England)
I was under the impression that Britain was handed the poison chalice.
No volunteers for the job from the rest of the I.c.ommunity.
.Didnt want it ,didnt ask for it ,knew it was going to be purgatory running it until for the Brits the inevitable lose ,lose situation.
Blamed by both sides for favouring the other.
All Britains fault of course but an amazing dearth of practical solutions from any of the other nations at the time .
Note I did say practical.