Free Will versus Determinism

The thread on Time Travel in fiction has gotten into a discussion on determinism. I don’t want to hijack that thread, but I felt the urge to make this comment:

If you believe that we are just puppets dancing on the strings of upbringing and environment,
and you feel outraged over some injustice you read about in the news headlines,
then consider this:

Hitler had no more free will than Gandhi had.
Officer Derek Chauvin had no more free will than George Floyd had.
Donald Trump has no more free will than you have.

Determinism rules the oppressors just as much as it rules the oppressed, the colonizers just as much as the colonized, the cops just as much as the criminals.

By opening a thread titled “Free Will versus Determinism,” you risk making it a rehash of one of the many “free will vs determinism” threads we’ve had in the past.

But I agree with what I think your point is: that if you espouse determinism, you have to be consistent with it. If it means you can’t hold people responsible for their actions, then it also means that you can’t hold people responsible for holding people responsible for their actions.

I disagree; determinism means we can hold people responsible. “Free will” means that holding anyone responsible for anything is pointless because their decisions and actions are not shaped by the past. There’s no point practically because it won’t affect their behavior (that requires determinism), and no point morally because their opinions have no effect on their actions, or future opinions, even.

A world of free will looks nothing like the real one, it’s a world of utterly unpredictable beings whose actions and thoughts change from moment to moment, with no connection to what they were even a moment ago.

I utterly disagree with every word you wrote. This is based entirely on my past history of free will and cannot possibly be a random occurrence.

That’s the thing; if your history has an effect on your actions that’s determinism, not free will.

That’s just not right. If there are three different kinds of fruit on the table, say a banana, an apple, and an orange, then my history, genetics, and other past effects might have shaped my preferences such as to choose the apple 80% of the time, the orange 20%, and the banana 0%. Your preferences, shaped by your individual history, might be wildly different. But from that, it doesn’t follow that if I choose the orange, I haven’t acted freely—it’s not that the universe somewhere throws a die to determine the outcome (or at least, not necessarily); those probabilities are just an accumulated description of my actual choices in similar situations.

Compare that to a game of chess: the rules necessitate a particular palette of moves, but don’t generally fix uniquely what move to choose at any given instant. So, you have an opening here for choice. Better players, whose experience through their history shaped their present abilities, will make better choices than worse ones; the same goes for moral choices. You might be able, by analyzing hundreds of games of Magnus Carlsen, to come to a probability distribution for his likely moves at a certain position, say at opening; observing more games, those predictions might be borne out. But that in itself doesn’t entail that these moves weren’t chosen freely—indeed, even a 100% chance doesn’t do that: it would be absurd to say that, in order to be truly free, he sometimes needs to make an idiotic move, or I sometimes need to choose the banana.

That’s just it; I consider “free will” to be an absurd idea that has absurd consequences if taken seriously.

To use your own example, eating a particular fruit because you like it is determinism in action; a cause having an effect. Free will means that cause and effect doesn’t apply (while somehow not being random), so you liking a fruit would have no effect on whether you decide to eat it, a different fruit, or gnaw on the table instead.

People have a strong tendency to say they believe in free will, then describe something that’s determinism with euphemisms.

But the absurdity here is just in demanding something of the notion of free will which there’s no reason for, i.e. that you for some reason can’t choose the same option every time. So just don’t require that and it’s fine.

That’s just a brute stipulation. In general, the set of causes (say, everything in the past light cone) of an event won’t precisely determine that event—it will constrain the options, but not lead to a unique selection, as with the rules of chess. The world, at least plausibly according to our best current theories, simply isn’t deterministic. True, most would then say that a choice happens ‘at random’; but that’s just a label put onto something, it doesn’t actually explain anything.

Pulling out a little, the problem here isn’t with how the world works, but how theories work: every theory is a transformation of some input data to yield a certain output—like a computation. But such transformations can’t generate new information, if you don’t augment them with an explicit source of new information which you then don’t further analyze (a black box), like ‘randomness’. So wherever information is created, theoretical model just fall short: that’s all there’s to it. The ‘absurd’ properties of free will are just an instance of taking the limitations of theoretical frameworks and projecting them onto the world—confusing the map for the territory.

The strongest argument against free will is what Galen Strawson calls the ‘Basic Argument’ (BA): to be responsible for one’s actions, one ought to be, likewise, responsible for one’s mental state determining these actions; but then, what determines that mental state? Either it’s externally determined, in which case, we’re not ultimately responsible; or we face an infinite regress where we somehow have to keep determining antecedents of our mental states. Since the latter is impossible, so is free will.

But the argument ends up proving too much, because it’s really an argument that no new information ever can come into being: it’s the same argument that has led to the necessity of an ‘uncaused cause’ to get the universe going, some ‘aseic’ being that somehow determines itself, or else, lead to infinite regress. Indeed, if we think about how we could give a mechanism for randomness, we again face the same issue: something like a Zeno machine, a computer that executes each successive instruction in half the time it took for the previous one, could produce genuine randomness—by traversing an infinite sequence of steps. (Conversely, a finite computer equipped with a source of genuine randomness can, by the Kučera–Gács theorem, produce every output of such a Zeno machine, so the two—the production of randomness and the traversal of infinitely many mechanical steps—are equivalent.)

So really, if we take the BA seriously, we should hold that no new information can ever be created, that there’s no randomness, that nothing could’ve ever come into existence. But clearly, there’s stuff around, so something must go wrong. And that’s just taking the limits of theoretical modeling for the limits of the world. What we’ve really landed on here is just the Münchhausen trilemma: chasing down everything to its ultimate origin, we’re left either with circularity, regress, or dogmatism. For randomness, or the origin of the world, most people are perfectly happy with just postulating some ‘black box’ where randomness is somehow generated, or where the world popped into existence. But that’s not solving anything; it’s just sweeping the issue under the rug. On the other hand, with free will, people all of a sudden think that the same issue renders it impossible—but that’s just being inconsistent. If you’re fine with randomness, you ought to be fine with free will, since the resources needed to bring about one (e.g. a Zeno machine) suffice for the other, too.

Of course, that doesn’t settle the question of whether we have free will. I think it’s the simplest explanation for our experience of having free will, but that of course doesn’t settle the matter. But belief in the usual arguments against the notion of free will, if consistently pursued, ultimately lands one in much greater trouble.

No; randomness can be explained via quantum mechanics. Free will can’t, because it is a nonsensical concept in the first place. What does it even mean for something to be neither random nor determined?

Choice is deterministic, cause and effect. With free will choice doesn’t exist; things “just happen” with no explanation or cause, or any correlation with anything else you think or do.

It very much can’t. That there is a random selection of outcomes upon measurement is an axiom of quantum mechanics—it’s exactly there where the black box is appealed to.

That it’s free, naturally. When you’re faced with a probability distribution over possible outcomes, you can interpret this in two different ways: one, something unknown doing we don’t know what draws ‘at random’ from this distribution; two, the distribution is just a means of concisely accounting for an ensemble of choices (real or potential). When you play chess, there are certain points where the action is open to choice. You could throw a die to determine the next move, or you could make a choice. For some reason, people seem to think that the universe is set up to throw dice; but there’s no need to think so.

Again, that’s just a brute stipulation. Choice is choice, in the same way randomness is randomness. If you’re able to believe in randomness, you can just as well believe in free choice: the resources for one just as well suffice for the other. There’s nothing mysterious about that.

Which isn’t an answer; you might as well just say “it’s fnord, naturally”. Making choices is deterministic, not “free”.

No. Randomness is a well-understood concept; “free choice” is just an empty phrase. It’s not “mysterious”, it’s nonsensical.

Ah cool another topic we agree on.

It’s a frustrating topic IME, because I dispute the implicit premises of such discussions*, which tends to annoy people on both sides.

Putting the phrasing to one side, I’d first say that legal systems don’t need to be based on punishment for evil. It still makes sense to, say, lock dangerous people up regardless of the cause.

But secondly yeah practically and emotionally it makes sense to see and treat people as freely choosing to be evil, even while understanding we can in principle trace it all back to prior events and structures.
Put it this way: if you’re attacked by another nation, you have to react. Even if it might be the result of complex internal factions and historical events…you may never fully understand the prior causes, and even if you did, there may be no obvious “solution”.

*

  1. Free will is a concretely-defined concept, which could exist in some universe
  2. If you don’t explicitly subscribe to the position that we have free will, you must be saying we’re automations and any feeling of freedom is an illusion.

There seems to be an underlying assumption that if we can understand the reasons for human behavior, that’s somehow dehumanizing and renders life meaningless. So people insist that we run on some sort of magic, instead.

But people making choices on the basis of their past doesn’t make them “puppets”, it means they have actual reasons for what they think and do instead of pulling it all out of some magical singularity in their head. It’s the opposite of dehumanizing and meaningless.

Why would determinism mean you can’t hold people responsible for their actions?

People make decisions, and they should face consequences for those decisions - that’s part of how they are able to make decisions, by looking at the consequences, and weighing their options. Consequences are how society puts its finger on the decision making scale of individuals, for better results for all.

The fact that people make decisions based on their knowledge of the world and the consequences their decisions will have is the very reason that consequences make sense.

Precisely this.

But I can see this thread is headed down the same path these threads always go down (so much for your supposed free will, believers! :winking_face_with_tongue:).

In fact, you need determinism in order to hold people responsible for their actions, much less for there to be a point in doing so. If people’s beliefs and intent don’t determine their actions, then how can they be considered responsible for anything? And if consequences don’t affect their behavior, then what would even be the point of trying?

People make noises about “free will”, but cause and effect - determinism in other words - pervades the entire concept of morality, justice, crime and punishment.

In every theory that depends on randomness, not even am attempt is made at ‘understanding’ it—that is, giving a mechanism for how it comes about (any ordinary mechanism is fully incapable of producing randomness). As soon as one tries to do so, the resulting faculty—e.g. the Zeno device—is just as capable of accounting for free will.

Put the other way around, if ‘free will’ is an empty placeholder, then so is randomness.

Yes, people making confident assertions without even engaging with the arguments.

No. The “Zeno machine” you described couldn’t produce randomness, it’s deterministic. And nothing can account for free will because the concept is both nonsensical and doesn’t resemble reality at all.

Do prisoners and human rights activists in dictatorships who think that they have very, very limited freedom, think complete nonsense when they realize that their free will is indeed restricted in real life?

Freedom from an oppressive regime that places restrictions on your ability to do what you want to do has absolutely nothing to do with the concepts of free will or determinism.

Free will is about how you internally come to want what you want to begin with, regardless of whether or not you possess the freedom to act on those desires.