Please demonstrate the fallacy of a “righeous” view of protecting the unborn.
Maybe i wasn’t clear. I’m saying that we ALL force views on other citizens through the legislative and executive process. If you are opposed to job discrimination on the basis of race (I’ll assume that you, like me, are for my point…ok?) …then you, by way of legislation are “forcing” that view on employers.
How would you respond to slave owners in the 1850s who would say…“If you don’t like slavery, then fine don’t own slaves…but don’t tell ME what to do with my own property”?
BTW, my earlier post was not a great example of clarity, so I hope that I didn’t indicate that I believe in abortion as birth control, because I don’t. I believe in being informed and well-prepared for whatever activity you are engaging in, but if something goes wrong or the unexpected happens, you need to have other options.
I firmly believe that if I had been having sex when I was 14 and had gotten pregnant, I would have been in no position whatsoever to raise a child. While I could have physically borne the child, that’s it. Mentally, psychologically, emotionally and spritually, it would have been a horrible tragedy.
My right to choose is currently protected, and I believe it should stay that way. I am not a rabid baby-killer. I am the mother of a beautiful baby boy, and I would love to have more. But if I felt that circumstances warranted the termination of my next pregnancy, you damn sure better not get in my way, because it’s none of your business. FTR, neither are the reasons that I would choose abortion over carrying the child to term. I believe that saying some reasons are “ok” and others aren’t is bullshit.
If it is a personal choice, then it is a personal choice.
I look into my 3 y/o daughters beautiful eyes and fall in love with her more and more everyday.
To hear her giggle and discover new things fills my heart with joy.
I am a young single mother, and the thought of some doctor tearing her tiny legs and arms off because ‘I’m not this or I’m not that so I’ll have an abortion’ makes me sick.
Real Medical reasons are a different story.
I guess people are going to choose what they want, but it doesn’t make it right…
By beagledave:
I would tell you that people are not property.
By JerseyDiamond:
The point is, that they should have the choice. You aren’t in their exact situation so you cannot be in a position to judge.
The fallacy lies within belief systems. Some would like to force their particular system on everyone else, whether they subscribe to it or not. No choice is allowed. It is the “my way is the right way” view. This never works because many people do not subscribe to that belief system. This is typified by a pro-life stance. No-one is allowed to have abortions. Period. The End.
Another view is to let the person make the moral choice themselves. It is my body and I have to bear the burdon of my choice. This is typified by the pro-choice stance. It is a choice, and for most, not an easy one. But is not your choice to make.
An example: A 15 year old girl is raped and becomes pregnant…
Pro-life: Congradulations on your new baby.
Pro-choice: Make your decision and deal with it.
I’m not trying to sound overly simple or dramatic. How would you feel if I took your choices away? If I took away your right to choose which God (if any) to believe in, how would you react? Not favorably, I’d guess.
If this slave lived inside his body, you he the only one who could feed it and otherwise take care of it and he believed that this slave was most likely not even aware of it’s own existance I would tell the slave owner that he had the right to act as he morally saw fit.
…in your opinion, which is right for you. Not for the rest of the world. I respect your opinion, please give me the same courtesy.
That of course assumes that you have assigned full personhood status to MY slaves…
Like I said…if you don’t like slavery…then fine don’t own any…but it sounds like you have no problem “forcing” your view on me in this case…
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by blastfurnace *
**
So I take it you would let plantation farmers in the 1850s choose whether or not to own slaves…You would not let “force” your abolitionist views on them? You would give them a “choice”?
Again…if you want to argue the merits of whether this particular restriction on citizens is warranted, then that is something we as a country do routinely. To try and suggest that a government (at least the U.S.) does not already “force” views on its citizens is silly.
Um, oh boy…
Which medical reasons are “real” and which are still self-serving? Who gets to decide? And while we’re at it, what is “right”, as in “I guess people are going to choose what they want, but it doesn’t make it right…” ?
And Jersey, I feel the EXACT same way when I look at my beautiful 14 month old son, who just started walking on Christmas Day (but that’s a whole other thread). But that does not mean that I will say that you are “wrong” to be pro-life, as it appears from your post that you are. Pro-choice does not mean “anti-life”, just that I have a right to choose what I do with my body as well as what happens to it.
Neither of us is wrong, we just believe differently.
And I have always wondered, with so many pro-lifers talking about adoption instead of abortion, how many of them have actually adopted?
And another thing- if you believe that abortion is wrong, a sin, murder, or whatever, no matter what the reason, then what happens when you are faced with one of these “real medical reasons” for an abortion?
Are you still a murdering, sinning, wrongdoer? Or is your reason OK, and it’s MY reason that’s a sin?
I’m in no position to judge! They should worry more about HE who is in the position to judge…
You are probably a great person, and I’m not so bad myself, but the only thing I have to do is realize that you have an opinion. Respecting an opinion is something I can’t always do. No hard feelings though!!
Actually quite a few. See JubilationTCornpone’s post http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=48750&pagenumber=2
Although I would hope that adoption is something both pro choice and pro life folks could agree to support…
If I remember it right, it was all Baptist Churchres and, no it did not take place in the midwest it took place here, here being San Diego.
Please read the rest of my post…
As for the Government “forcing” it’s views on its citizens…Where did I say I agreed with that? My concern is with the taking away of freedoms because of a particular belief system. An example outside this topic is flag-burning. Which do you prefer: the choice to burn the flag or making it illegal to do so? Many of our citizens support legislation to make flag-burning illegal. That is removal of choice.
Our government has made many, many shortsighted decisions in the past. Does that give it the excuse to do so in the future by removing even more choices?
These are the questions that a person with a pro-life stance can’t answer. The Freedom to choose provides these answers.
I think you sum it up nicely when you say, “I don’t know what you believe…”. It really doesn’t matter. That is the whole point. What you believe doesn’t have a bearing on what I choices I make. You are pro-life. I am not. I’m not trying to take away your choices with my beliefs…you are trying to remove mine with yours.
Thank you, JerseyDiamond. I do appreciate your thoughts (notice lack of [sarcasm] tags). I whole-heartedly wish the same for you.
By Beagledave:
First of all, :rolleyes:. This isn’t even a valid argument, because slavery is illegal, abortion is not. There are plenty of medical arguments (yes, I know they go both ways) on when a zygote becomes a human being/person, and there is an argument over when life begins, there is no concrete answer on when it actually does start (as far as I know). There is no way to dispute that enslaved people are not people. You can try again.
Some quotes by Jersey Diamond:
OK, I’m guessing you’re referring to the traditional God here, I say I’m guessing because there is a slim chance that you might not be and I don’t want to misrepresent your views. Judging from your other posts I’m going to go ahead and say that is who you are referring to in this post.
OK, now this might be news to you, but not everyone believes the same things as you. Don’t worry, you can’t save 'em all, no matter how valiant of an effort you make. It really isn’t your problem if they go to hell (I’m guessing that’s what you believe will happen) now is it? You admitted that you aren’t in a position to judge, so don’t, and let the Big Guy upstairs be the one to judge, since that is what you believe, you don’t need to worry about other people.
Yeah, well you’re lucky that there are enough of the people in the country that don’t think the same way you do. If they did you might not be able to practice the religion you are lucky enough to practice. Believe it or not, there are people that don’t worship the same God as you, but they do respect your right to the opinion that your religion is the “right” one.
Yes, I support adoption, and I wish that more people would adopt, and I wish that more of the adopters (I guess) would be willing to adopt babies that aren’t white or totally healthy. Yeah, I know that there are waiting lists, but minorities and less than healthy kids can, and do get left out in the cold. Then those kids that don’t get adopted get kicked around in foster homes (which aren’t always ideal either).
Thanks for the legal lesson. In one Simpsons episode, Ned Flanders is uneasy about the town’s decision to legalize gambling, so he asks Rev. Lovejoy, who says, “Once something has been approved by the government, it’s no longer immoral!” 
Obviously, the writers scripted that because it’s funny, and it’s funny because it’s wrong, and a Reverend should know that. Point is, Uncle Sam’s OK isn’t the same as my Conscience’s OK (I’m an atheist, so that’s what I rely on).
Also, are you saying that the laws can’t change??
**
But that’s exactly what the slave-owners did. Well, obviously not ALL… but certainly some slave-owners saw their slaves as demi-human at best. Such a view is absurd, and dare I say, wrong to you. The view that an embryo/fetus is demi-human is equally absurd and wrong to me.
I think you’re entirely missing the point of what beagledave was saying. The argument of “Don’t restrict my choices!” is ludicrous, because that’s what government DOES. You do NOT have total freedom, not even over your own body. Suicide is illegal… it may be a silly law, but I’ve never heard anyone protest against it. Shooting heroin into your veins is illegal, even though from what I’ve been told, the main reaction is often to collapse in an orgiastic, exhausted heap.
Should you have the choice to kill yourself? Maybe. But you don’t, and I don’t see anyone protesting the laws. If you want to start a Total Freedom platform, where you’re free to stick a knife in your neck in the middle of a kindergarten classroom if you so desire, then go ahead. But to accept anti-suicide laws, but reject anti-abortion laws, is inconsistent.
Quix
Wow, I’m really amazed. Where did you go to school? There’s this thing called the Constitution. It is a document enumerating the principles, procedures, and laws that govern the Union of 50 independent States that constitutes (get it? constitute…Constitution. pretty cool, huh?) the Nation we know as the United States of America.
There is also something called the Bill of Rights. Perhaps you’ve heard of it? Well, see, there is a list of changes, or Amendments, to the Constitution. The first ten of these are called the Bill of Rights and were in place and ratified by all but the first five States. Fittingly, these first ten Amendments protect various ideas that are assumed to be some of the most basic rights of mankind, as well as rights that belong to the States themselves. The very first of these, and so probably what the founders considered to be the most important, is this (bolding is mine):
Also, don’t forget this one:
Guess what that means. It means that no matter how you feel about JerseyDiamond’s religion (which I happen to share, incidentally), and no matter how many people share your opinions, you can’t do squat about it. Nobody needs to ‘respect her opinion’ in order for her to worship her (and my) God. There is no such provision in the Constitution for the right to tear an unborn child’s body into pieces or to “evecuate the cranial cavity” because the mother was inconvenience by the pregnancy. Get it? Good deal. Class dismissed.
Carry on.
Dignan, am I going to have to rip into you on every thread I look at? Read a little before you post, ok?
And fighting to outlaw abortion is not forcing my morality on you. It is giving voice to, and fighting to defend, those who cannot speak for or defend themselves. That is what laws are for. To protect those who cannot protect themselves.
If you were perfectly capable of fighting off my physical attack, then you would have no need for a law telling me I’m not allowed to attack you. In the same vein, an unborn child is unable to speak up and say “hey, mom, don’t kill me!” So it is up to reasonable adults to speak up for them.
That is what the whole “pro-life” thing is (or should be) about. Not a political ideology, not religion.
And I have to agree with quixotic78, in that if you want to make it legal to kill a baby before it’s born (“It’s my choice! I can do what I want with my body!”), then it is hypocritical for you to deny me the right to do with my own body as I choose, and kill a person AFTER he or she is born. For you to advocate abortion, you should also advocate the repeal of all laws restricting murder. After all, it’s my body. It’s my choice. If I choose to kill, so be it. Right?
I would point people toward the page before that as well, http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=48750&pagenumber=1 – specifically, the post dated 11-30-2000, 04:52 p.m. Also, an outstanding response to this question can be found at http://members.aol.com/CPLBO/Beckwith.2.html, in the section titled “Why Don’t Pro-Lifers Adopt the Babies They Don’t Want Aborted?”
Please pardon me for keeping out of this discussion, as I have other pressing obligations. This is one of my favorite topics, as evidenced by the volume of my postings in previous threads. Sadly, this just isn’t a good time for me. :rolleyes: