Freedom of Religion - comes from God?

Great Debates
1

I’ve been reading Roy Moore’s book So Help Me God (you remember him, the former Alabama Supreme Court chief Justice, the “10 Commandments Judge”). I have come across a doctrine that seems very strange to me - and I can’t believe I’m the first one to come across this dilema.

The problem is, that there are those in American history and law that believe that freedom of religion is something that God himself (that is, the Christian god) wants people to have. This is not Roy Moore came up with, you can find the same concept in Jefferson’s Virginia Statute for religious freedom. G.W. Bush often says that “freedom is a gift of the Almighty” -and although this isn’t necessarily about F.o.R. it always makes me a bit uncomfortable.

How can you make the case that god, that is, any particular god, wants people to have freedom of religion? Then claim that this god wants “our nation” to be free?

I have several problems with this -
First, it simply sounds logically very weak - it sounds like Henry Ford when he says " you can have a car any color, as long as it’s black". It’s like you’re saying that our country recognizes a god who wants freedom of religion, so you’re free to believe in other gods, but, (accroding to Roy) you need to acknowledge the Christian god who lets you belive such nonsense. It sounds crazy.

Second, where do folks get the idea that the Christian god wants freedom? How about those commandments that say “You shall have no other gods before me” and “no graven images” and such? That doesn’t sound like the Christian god is okay with freedom of religion.

Third, how about the historical problems with all the other countries / kings/ nations that embraced Christianity as a state religion - why didn’t they go for this F.O.R. thing? and why did so many people flee such stuff in Europe, to establish a free country in America?

Go ahead- address any of these points, or, enlighten me… has there been any other pre-US nation that was mostly Christian, but addressed freedom of religion in any similar fashon?

2

You might be interested in reading about henotheism. Don’t expect Judge Moore’s stance makes any more sense after you’ve read that article.

3

Freedom to choose a religion, or anything else, is inherent in the idea that God gave man free will. Without free will, you cannot make the decision to move toward God or toward or away from anything.

4

This is just what I was going to say. A God who grants free will necessarily encourages freedom of religion. And personally, I don’t believe in a God that would punish people just for backing the wrong horse.

5

Look, you don’t HAVE to believe in that sort of God, no one is going to force you to. You just have to acknowledge that you owe the existence of this country and its laws to that God. Sheesh.

6

Er…no. If I don’t believe in it, then the only people I “owe” are the *believers *in that God. I don’t owe the *God *anything.

I didn’t know this. I firmly believe that “freedom of religion” also means “freedom *from *religion”, how does that fit in? Once upon a time this country was a haven for people fleeing religious persecution, it still should be.

7

First, let’s clarify that we are talking about the Judeo-Christian God here. And the free will he gave necessitates that you are free to honor Him, another god, or no god. Now part of this belief system icnludes the idea that if you wan to get to heaven you had better choose Him, but that is your choice. It is the same with being devout or not. Someone cannot be forced into piety, he has to come to it of his own volition.

You are free to believe in anything you wish. Just understand that there are consequences.*

*For the record, I was raised Catholic but now practice no religion.

8

Well, from the Virginia (Jefferson’s) statute: “Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free…”.

I had, up to this time, believed that freedom of religion was a uniquely American adventure, where Americans decided to remove religious persecution and coersion from government because it led to a more peaceful society, not, as this statement would seem to imply, because God wants it that way.

Under this idea, you are free “from” religion, but you have to note that God (not necessarily one you believe in) has given you this.

My head hurts when I try to understand this. Well, actually, just for a minute, then I decide it’s a bunch of baloney.

9

This has always seemed to me to be a strange form of “freedom”. I might say, “you can have any of my cookies that you like, but I’ll shoot you thru the head if you touch one of them”. Most people would not regard this as much of an offer.

10

You don’t owe your own creator and the giver of your right to free belief anything just because you don’t believe in him? You better just be glad that God doesn’t whooosh you right on out of here for not understanding the truthiness of Roy Moore’s position.

11

I agree, hence my asterisk.

12

This is quite obviously no freedom at all. This is like putting a gun to somehead’s head and telling them they are free to leave the room, they just have to understand you’ll blow their brains out if they do. It’s the reasoning of a psychopath. It’s only compounded by the fact that this God refuses to offer the slightest shred of evidence that he exists at all, much less that he should be honored. This means that salvation is nothing but a guessing game. Guess right, you go to Disneyland, guess wrong you BURN IN HELL FOREVER…or maybe not. Some say you just get locked out of Disneyland but hey, you CHOSE to be locked out of Disneyland. God would like to help you but it’s not like he just has the power to…oh wait, he DOES have the power. He’s GOD.

Incidentally, 'Judeo-Christian" is just another word for “Christian.”

13

Well, I think I share where you come out on this, as I do not believe what Catholic’s or Christians believe and practice no religion at all. But I think you go to far. The fact that not everyone chooses to follow the doctrine shows that there really is a choice. People choose to follow other religions every day. Some decide to follow no religion. Some even deny the very existence of God, or any god.

As far as God offering evidence. The logic is that of he did, then moving toward him would no longer be an act of faith. If there is this God and he has the endless powers ascribed to him, he could very easily prove his existence and his power, either through the kind of plagues he visited upon Egypt or by turning the Empire State Building upside down and other “impossible” tricks, but that would remove the leap of faith that doctrine says is required.

You’re point being? I was simply trying to be inclusive as to who adhered to the concept of free will coming from God. Am I wrong that the concept is part of the Jewish religion? My apologies if I was incorrect about that.

14

I have always thought in meant Jewish & the various Christian Religions.
Wiki seems to support this view.

Jim

15

Judeo-Christian basically means the old-time unitarian-Masonic ethical monotheism which most of our Founders had in common- there is One God. the Hebrew prophets, Jesus & his apostles were major spokesmen for Him, and their main message was to acknowledge that One God & treat each other decently & respect their rights.

David Prager notes that the American concept of its culture as Judeo-C’tian kept it from lapsing into the anti-Semitism & gov’t absolutism which plagued “C’tian” Europe.

In Genesis, God make Adam & Eve free to choose to trust or distrust Him. He warned them that distrust would send them into mortality. They chose to distrust Him & He delivered that mortality to them- but stayed in relationship with them.

The Israelites was delivered from Egyptian bondage by The Lord’s prophets doing miracles. They were given Torah. Moses in the last chapters of Deuteronomy told them they could choose to obey & be blessed or disobey & be cursed. Joshua upon bringing them into the land told them to choose who they would serve but that he would serve The Lord. If they chose against The Lord, they would cease to be part of the Covenant people, and join the Gentiles.

Deuteronomy 30 (whole chapter but especially…)
15. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16. In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18. I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20. That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24
15. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
16. And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods;

In the Bible, there is a Clear Revelation given, with a Law that has clear expectations, benefits & penalties. If you buy into the idea that these people did experience the Divine- it’s fair at least to the recipients of that experience. You can question whether it’s fair to the later generations who only have their ancestors record of that experience to rely upon.

Also, in The Revelation, we see that no one goes into God’s Aionian Punishment
without first getting a clear choice between the Lamb and the Beast… AND if you know the Fire & Brimstone symbolism of the Hebrew Bible, you know that such Sulfurous Fire is just a manifestation of God’s Justice. Thus, EVERYONE goes into God/Christ at the End, but some experience Him as Blessing and others experience Him as Agonizing. It’s their choice.

16

But if the payoffs are as you say, then the only rational explanation for the choices made is that they are made without the necessary information. No one would choose eternal suffering intentionally, no matter what the short-term payoff.

In Protestant circles perhaps. The Catholic line is that the existence of God is perceptible by reason. The idea that belief in god is pure faith is considered to be something of a theological blunder, in Catholic thinking.

Of course, that doesn’t get rid of the problem. If God wanted everyone to know that God existed, that wouldn’t preclude them from making free choices. They’d just have more information (albiet information that self-defeatingly undermines all perception of reality). They could still choose to be evil if they wished.

Not that, per se, the concept of free will actually makes any sense to anyone.

17

Why do you say Catholics or Christians?Catholics are Christians, The council called together by Constantine to unify Christianity was called the Holy Catholic Church, the Bishops decided what would be inspired and what was not. The monks wrote the gathered writings together and that became the New Testament. The Apostles creed includes the phrase I believe in the holy catholic church.

You’re point being? I was simply trying to be inclusive as to who adhered to the concept of free will coming from God. Am I wrong that the concept is part of the Jewish religion? My apologies if I was incorrect about that.
Monavis

18

Requires for what purpose? I can see the purpose in having to have faith in the good character or promises of God, but what is the purpose of having it be a wild flying fuck at the moon whether or not God exists at all? It doesn’t even make sense in terms of the Bible. The people of Israel had God bumming around with them in a bleedin tornado, and they still had all sorts of different reactions to him and faith in his power. Didn’t seem to put them in automatic lockstep. If God is all powerful, then he could just make it so that everyone just knows that he exists period, no plauges necessary. Then we can work from there. I’d be perfectly happy with that. I wouldn’t feel compelled. What’s the big deal?

If God really cared about free will, he would
a) make his existence a non-controvertible reality
b) make plain that there are absolutely no “surprise! now you burn in hell, or rot in your own loneliness or what have you!” consequences for not loving him, ever. It’s all up to your free, un-threatened choice.
c) maybe even hint that there is some mild discomfort for doing his will
d) see what happens.

The whole “oh shit, you didn’t realize that dinosaurs were a joke!” nonsense makes no sense at all as a test of either faith or free will.

19

Would you prefer a God who reached into your brain and made you think and feel whatever he wanted you to? I never understand why that option isn’t a brazillion times creepier to some people.

20

I’d prefer a God who didn’t care what people believed. Making specific belief a requirement for salvation is irrational and unfair- especially if God isn’t going to bother to give anyone any ability to determine what the correct belief is. It makes no sense to me to say that it doesn’t matter what kind of person you are, all that matters is if you can correctly guess out of your ass which doctrine is the “true” out of an infinite number of possibilities- all with the exact same amount of proof.