Who said “not-a-real-Jew”? Reform Jews are (mostly) Jews. The religion they are playing at is not real Judaism.
Kinda. “My shul, the one I never go to, is an orthodox one.”
That’s equivocation. You know as well as I do that “Jew” has multiple meanings, and in this context we’re clearly discussing its meaning, “adherent to the religion of Judaism.”
In any event, do you or do you not have actual data to support your personal experiences? I don’t deny such data exist; but in a cursory search I’ve been unable to find any such data, and the events on the ground can equally be explained by an ultra-Orthodox control of the religious power structure in Israel, the sort that, according to some of my reading, means that marriages performed by Reform rabbis are not recognized by the state as legally valid.
I don’t find this part convincing at all; the history of civil rights in America is filled with “deliberately provocative” acts. Rosa Parks refusing to stand was interpreted by many as provocative, but it was still (obviously) the right thing to do.
Maybe to you “Jew” has multiple meanings. To Judaism, it has one.
There is no data because no one bothers to gather it. Reform religion has never (thank God) taken root in Israel and what congregations exist consist mainly of the Anglo immigrants. Their children born in Israel usually don’t follow in their parents’ footsteps. It is a foreign concept that Anglo immigrants keep trying to inject into Israel, and Israelis keep rejecting.
How is that relevant to my post? I was responding to someone who claimed that the Reform women actions were not “deliberately provocative”. If you think they were deliberately provocative, I agree.
Men and women are separated at the Wall. There is a men’s section and a women’s section, and they are separated from each other. Reform religion adherents pray together, men and women. Should they try to force that at the Wall as well?
??? This goes against everything I’ve heard other Jews talk about. Unless you’re going no true Scotsman on me, I’m having even greater time figuring out what you mean.
And this gets to the heart of it: religious bigotry. Who needs facts and data when you can dismiss differing religious beliefs as a bunch of outsiders and foreigners?
A Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother or converted according to Halacha. Following Judaism is not a requirement. So yes, a Reform Jew is a Jew if he falls under one of the above criteria, whether he follows Judaism or not.
Anglo immigrants are not “foreigners”. They are Israelis. But the Reform religion they bring with them is foreign to Israel, and foreign to other Israelis, even the Anglo immigrants’ children that are born in Israel.
No, of course not. In my opinion, forcing others to obey your own religion’s requirements is wrong in all cases. Both groups should be allowed to pray as they see fit. How does it harm the Orthodox Jews if Reform Jewish women pray at what they consider to be the holiest part of the Wall? How does it harm the Orthodox Jews if Reform Jewish women wear what they consider necessary for their prayer?
No one prevents Reform Jewish women praying at the Wall.
It harms them in the same way that it would harm them if they (and Reform do consider egalitarianism to be a basic requirement) insisted on praying on the men’s side.
It’s unsourced, but the Israel Movement For Progressive Judaism claims here that:
Progressive Judaism includes Liberal, Reform, and Reconstructionist Judaism, according to this.
It’s my understanding that the “women’s side” of the Wall is considered less holy, and a less desirable spot for prayer (in addition to being an archaeological site). Why can’t the women pray where they want?
This sounds like zero harm to me.
No, of course not. In my opinion, forcing others to obey your own religion’s requirements is wrong in all cases.
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But that wouldn’t be “forcing others to obey your own religion’s requirement”. They would just be quietly praying in men’s section. After all, as some poster put it above: “You can’t be disrupted by quiet prayer unless you allow yourself to be disrupted. Or are a power-hungry, selfish religious fanatic.”
Yup. Unsourced. I am surprised they didn’t claim all 80%.
Exactly. Let them pray quietly where they wish, wearing what they wish. Do not prevent anyone from praying at any part of the Wall they wish in a non-disruptive manner.
Of course. And to hell with the vast majority of the people who come to the Wall who won’t be able to come and pray there if there will be a mixing of men and women there.
And didn’t you just say that men and women should stay separated at the Wall in your previous post?
Self-nitpick: it seems that Progressive Judaism in Israel refers to Reform Judaism specifically.
That article states:
I don’t think I said that. I meant that orthodox men and women should not be forced to pray together. I think it’s been proposed that certain times of day be allocated to mixed or men only prayer, might that satisfy the religious requirements of both sided?
Yes,true…whether one feels its right or wrong ,their actions were delibaretly provocative. Ive been many times to both the orthodox shul, a conservative temple and an ultra liberal reform synagogue. And ive never seen women wearing tallit
There is nothing preventing hoffman and that small group from praying at the Wall. By insisting on prayinvg with the men they will be preventing the Jews from following their religion,…it would essentially take away the religious rights of the majority to cater to a few.