Freedom of religion in Israel

Heh. It’s almost characteristic of us Jewish unbelievers to nonetheless care about concepts like idolatry. :smiley:

Myself, I can even rationalize it (somewhat) - idolatry is a bad thing because it is mistaking the symbolic for the actual, and it remains a bad thing even if the “actual” is merely an abstract concept that we know has no literal existence - such as the Jewish notion of God.

You are of course right. Funny enough I struggled somewhat over adding that sentence. I wanted to to add in parentheses “is idolatry really so bad?” and decided against it.
What sealed it was that I remembered Yeshayahu Leibowitz naming the wall “disco-kotel” and I saw the image of praying to the golden calf. It’s the hypocrisy of the ultra-orthodox that angered me.

Someone who is “not-Zionist” is not the equivalent of “anti-Zionist.” I have several friends who are not Zionists, but they are not anti-Zionists. Trust me on this one.

I don’t think I’d define it like that. They worship God, not the land, so I don’t think I’d see it as the “pinnacle of their faith.” I think you’re confusing “Zionist Ultra-Orthodox” with the Hilltop Youth. You might be interested to know that not all Orthodox residents of Yehuda and the Shomron agree with much of what the Hilltop Youth kids do.

All Orthodox Jews are, by definition, Messianic. We all believe in the coming of the Mashiach. This is not something that defines Zionists.

Not going to the Temple Mount has nothing to to with Zionism/anti-Zionism. There are legitimate halachic questions as to where one may go on the Mount, or even if one may go at all. Many rabbis in the dati-leumi world agree that people should not go there. It’s just not a Zionist/anti-Zionist thing.

Don’t get confuse this with Satmar Hasidim, who apparently won’t go to the Kotel (Western/Wailing Wall) because one of the previous Rebbes said not to go. That was anti-Zionism.

There’s nothing like a good fight between 2 Jews to raise the spirits. I didn’t say half of the things you are rebutting. So:

Of course. That’s why I used the word or.

However even the regular non-Zionist “Haredim” (i.e. Agudat Israel) cannot really accept the Halachic lawfulness of the State of Israel. As you probably know, they are not willing to serve as ministers in a government, since this will turn the de facto acceptance of the Jewish state into de jure. I should also say that Agudat Israel fought the Zionists at each step prior to the creation of the state. On an individual basis, they can be very Zionist, especially those who immigrated from Western countries.

Of course. Many people worship God, but only some of them are certain that God wants us to rule over the whole of Eretz-Israel NOW, and the hell with everything else. The big problem with many who worship God is that they seem to be certain about the wishes of God, and unfortunately those certainties are very different in different groups.

Oh, no. I’m not. The hilltop guys are just lost souls. Basically I empathize with their plight.

What I mean are people like Kahana and his many followers, people like Shapira and Elitzur from “Od Yosef Chai”, Dov Lior, Ginsburg, and many other Rabbis.
Also very dangerous people, like those who want to destroy the Muslim mosques on the Temple mount and build the 3rd temple instead.

Yes, of course, probably not only the Orthodox. The big question, of course, is the interpretation of when the Messiah will come and whether we are allowed to do anything to hasten his coming. This holds some of the biggest divisions in Judaism.

The guys wanting to destroy the mosques think they will bring the Armageddon and thus Messiah will have to appear.

Basically, this is also the Evangelist view, only that in their version most of the Jews are killed, and the others convert to Christianity. Maybe you take a look at Jeremy Gimpel speaking at an evangelist church about blowing up the Temple Mount Mosques. He ain’t the “hilltop youth”, he was number 14 in the Bennett’s party list.

Regarding being allowed to step on the Temple Mount. I think that all haredim (ultra-orthodox) and most of the Zionist orthodox think that it is forbidden. I agree with you here.

At some point there were rumors that excavations in the Temple Mount were underway, and Jewish artifacts were being destroyed.

The rumors are true.