Freedom = USA

Hamlet:

Please don’t take offense at my “weak-kneed and maudlin” comment. I didn’t mean to imply that you were “weak-kneed” or “maudlin,” I just meant that I often personally experience American pronouncements regarding “freedom” as something like that. It’s a kind of emotional valence that infects the entire public discourse on the issue.

Buddy, you don’t know the half of it.

I do, actually, agree with your statement. But I probably wouldn’t have stated it quite in the same way; I guess, in part, because it seems so self-evident. Is it not?

Not at all. I just used what you posted as a handy example. Obviously you have a deeper grasp of the issue than those 300 words; but it’s telling to me that when you want to distill what you feel to be most important about freedom into a short post, you fall back on cliches about how you’re “proud of Americans who fight for freedom,” and so forth. I don’t mean this as a personal criticism, by the way, it’s just an observation. There is something, I don’t know, “fetish-like” about these very “American” sorts of pronouncements, at least from an outsider’s perspective. (I realize that might sound critical as well; I’m trying, probably unsuccessfully, to communicate something here.)

Well, point taken. But most people do equate democracy with political freedom. A democracy is not absolutely free, but it’s “freer” than most other forms of government, or so they say. Saddam Hussein was a dictator, and the people of Iraq “groaned” under him, yearning to be free. And so on.

You pointed out that the Constitution guaranteed our freedoms, creating a “country founded on the idea of freedom for its people.” Actually (as note below, as well), the Constitution simply lays out our governmental architecture, and as far as that goes, seems designed to limit, rather than expand, on local freedoms/democracies.

Indeed, that fact occurred to me not more than two minutes before reading the above.

I apologize. It was not my intention to mock you at all.

First off, I’m impressed by your googling skills. And what an interesting study. Some of the answers speak volumes.

Secondly, sure, if pressed, a Swede might say…nyahhh, I don’t know. He/she might check the box “somewhat proud” in answer to the question, “Are you proud of the way democracy works in Sweden?” In fact, democracy is a very important value in Sweden. But I still argue they wouldn’t go round waving flags and saying, “I’m proud of our Grundlag.” Pride in the Constitution is sentiment exclusive, or very nearly exclusive, to Americans.

I guess I just don’t understand why this very good thing, for which a person might be reasonably grateful, also inspires the emotion of pride. I fully respect you feeling that way, but I honestly don’t understand it, even having grown up over there.
Maybe those rednecks just hit me in the head one time too often?

You aren’t kidding. If I ever meet Lee Greenwood (Of, “I’m proud to be an American” fame) in a dark alley, I know only one of us is coming out of that alley alive.

As my junior high chess champ and a pronounced “mathlete”, I may have a slight understanding.

To rationale people, it was not only self-evident, but also a bit emotional. But rationale people are not always the target for these threads.

While some truths cannot help to become cliche, I can see your point. Except the majority of my post was an attempt to extend the concept of freedom to all nations and people, not solely "Merkins. My point was that a majority of countries have rhetoric and individualized statements about their freedoms. Granted America has more, and more cliche, ways of stating them, (just look at Milum), but that doesn’t change the fact that almost all countries wish to and work to, be known as free.

I’ll go out on a limb and state that yes, America is more “free” than Iraq under Saddam Hussein.

While a great majority of the Constitution deals with the logistics of creating a country, to say that “freedom” of the people was not a concern would be false. The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution. And if you look at the statements of Washington, he seemed convinced the Constitution had adequate protections for freedom. In addition, Hamilton made a point of mocking the anti-federalists who were against ratification of the Constitution without the Bill of Rights included. His point was that many of the State’s themselves did not have enumerated rights in their “constitutions”, and complaining that the Union Constitution did not was tantamount to ignoring the log in their own eye.

As an aside, I always do my best to lie to pollsters. In fact, according to one poll, I am one of the 3% of Americans who believe Welles’ “War of the Worlds” actually happened.

Well, of course. You guys just copied off of ours, so what’s to be proud of. :slight_smile:

In part, it is a product of living in America. I’d agree, by and large, that the U.S. is the loudest, most in-your-face braggarts in the world. However, on a personal level, I guess the pride has to do with the identification with the people who have created and work for, the Constitution. Just as I’m sure some of your countrymen are proud of the Swedish National Football Team when (if?) they do well stems from a small amount of identification with the players, so I too am proud of our Constitution and judiciary.

I don’t want to get into a shitfight about what country has done most to preserve and promote freedom worldwide. But I can’t let this sort of remark go by without reminding you that in WWI, while you were sitting on your hands wondering if you’d be better off maintaining your isolationism, Australians were getting slaughtered in Europe.

I find this an odd sentiment. Unfortunately, slavery was American. The country that has kept two Australians locked up at Camp X-Ray, without charge, for over a year now is American. I respect and value America’s commitment to liberty, but, unfortunately, there are many American things devoid of liberty.

I think the “freedom fetish” in US is inherited from the British, who inherited it from the Saxons. We are talking about thousands of years of ideological obsession, having very liitle to do with reality.

In practical terms, US is not a “land of the free” by any measure; it is a land of “law and order”. There were more individual freedoms in Soviet Union than there are in US (and a lot less “law and order”). The everyday lives of common Americans are subject to unbelievable number of petty rules and restrictions.

Not in any way to take Milum’s side, Australians were not dying for freedom in WWI. You were pawns in territorial disputes between the Triple Entente (your side) and the Triple Alliance in a war that could have been avoided.

Given the Australian legacy of racism, you don’t have a lot of room to point fingers at us. And if David Hicks is innocent, why was he fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan? Was he lost from a holiday tour of Kabul, perhaps? And do you think Mamdouh Habib was taken off that bus in Karachi for no reason?

Such as?

As others have touched on, the interaction between democracy and freedom is an interesting one for several reasons:
(a) the well-known “tyranny of the majority” issue. In a pure democracy, 51% of the population can enact any law that they like, and laws (almost by definition) restrict freedom
(b) a respect for democracy doesn’t necessarily equate with a love of freedom, at least for some types of freedom. In an extremely religious society, for instance, a democractic government might severely limit freedom

From the OP:

This close?

Yeah, that extreme nationalism is quite the beotch.

H.L. Mencken: “Free inquiry cannot flourish among idiotic certainties of ignorant men”

New Iskander: In practical terms, US is not a “land of the free” by any measure; it is a land of “law and order”. There were more individual freedoms in Soviet Union than there are in US (and a lot less “law and order”). The everyday lives of common Americans are subject to unbelievable number of petty rules and restrictions.

gex gex: …in WWI, while you (the people of the United States) were sitting on your hands wondering if you’d be better off maintaining your isolationism, Australians were getting slaughtered in Europe.

Milum: So? Can’t a woman have time to make up her mind?

gex gex: …Unfortunately, slavery was American. The country that has kept two Australians locked up at Camp X-Ray, without charge, for over a year now is American…

Milum: Please gex, slavery was not for just Americans, slavery was widespread enought back then for almost all countries to share in the guilt trip and belated regrets of today.

And further; we Americians are not crass money-grubbing capitalists, we are not charging the two Australians for their room and board at camp X-Ray.
But understand, we are at war with Global Terrorism and as such we will take no chances with those who have aided in the killing of our people. Would you?

Even so we have invited the Aussies and the damn U.N. to monitor our treatment of these two gentlemen and to review our evidence of their complicity in abetting terrorisitic acts that exists against these two Australian bastards of whom you have voiced your concern.

Such as paying taxes, avoiding lawsuits, placating neighbours, picking up after your pets, etc, etc, etc… In Soviet Union one didn’t have to worry about taxes (as the gov. was the sole employer), didn’t have to worry about lawsuits (because court system was a joke) and if your neighbour demanded that you restrain your kids or pets, you could settle the matter right then and there without any further repercussions. Such is real freedom: brutal, obnoxious and very dirty. If you are going to say that common sense rules and regulations are good, useful and distinguish humans from beasts, I’ll say, “Absolutely, but they are not freedom.”

Agent Cooper:

I wouldn’t go that far, but you might go so far as to say the US fought WWII for revenge. At any rate, it’s ironic that we didn’t join in the fight for freedpom until we came to believe that our own selfish interests were at stake–and yet we were wrong.

Milum, spare us that “we’d all be speaking German” bullshit. Not was that an overreaction to Agent Cooper’ post, but the Nazis had no intention of invading the US, as has been made clear plenty of times on this board.

Nope, no arrogance here. :rolleyes:

Ultimately we fought WWII to establish the UN. Even before Germany’s defeat, General Eisenhower had taked to referring the Allied forces as “the United Nations”. (and who deserves a fair amount of the blame for the failure of the League of Nations?)

To toss a relevant concept into the fray: I’m starting to wonder how many people understand the concept of Rule of Law.

Nothing terribly constructive to add, other than to ditto that this whole “they hate freedom” thing is (to me) an Orwellian doublespeak non sequitur phrase cynically used (most noticably by the current administration) to bait the (honest, god-fearing) trailer trash into swallowing their bucket o’ lies.

I wish that people would pay more attention to the flags draped over the coffins of our soldiers than the ones the administration is waving so frantically to divert our attention from their (you pick) a.)malfeasances b.)incompetencies.

Damn. Almost a record. Fifty posts in Great Debates without a Bush Bashing.
You blew it, An Arky. A thread entitled Mass Extinction at the KT Boundary: Asteroid or Just Plain Bad Luck actually went fifty-one posts before blaming Bush.
And for all you jive-schoolers out there who think that saying “fuck” and “doing your own thing” constitutes “freedom”, here’s a test…
Publicly accuse the leader of your country of murder, lying, and corruption.
The next day look in the mirror.
If your head is still on your shoulders you are living in a land of the free.
Ten million Democrats, many of whom post on the **Straight Dope Message Board **, should thank their lucky stars

They are not coffins; they are transport tubes. And they do not come draped with flags because the DoD ordered that they be brought home as inconspicuously as possible so as to avoid embarrassing our fearless leader who, (as of a month ago, and, as far as I know, still), has never bothered to go greet any of the returning deceased.


As to the OP: the PR that the U.S. is the defender of Freedom originated during WWII when it could certainly be said that we were defending Freedom (although hardly alone) and was then made a strong theme during the propaganda of the Cold War when we contrasted our “defense of freedom” with the “enslavement of the communists” (which, bearing a kernel of truth in Europe, of course, provided many counter examples in Asia, Africa and the Americas). Since most of the people voting and paying taxes in the U.S. grew up hearing the appeal to freedom as an American ideal, it was a handy and familiar tag for the current administration to use for its propaganda in this war. (Particularly since the key players in this administration were intending to launch this war since before Bush entered office–they needed a theme.)

That’s it? That’s your yardstick of freedom? “Shut up, it could be worse” sounds like something that could have been muttered in the Gulag. So if GW taps your phone, or imprisons you without charges or counsel, or steals from your children’s future so his buddies can reap a tax cut windfall, you are still free? So long as he doesn’t kill you when you bitch about your chains, you call that freedom? Wake up Milum, your freedom is in as much jeopardy as the rest of us! How can you feel free just because Bush & Co. haven’t busted down your door and lopped off your head? Freedom is about more than simply being allowed to wake one more day. It troubles me that you don’t cherish it enough to demand its full measure from your government. Taking only what they give you giving isn’t enough; it is the duty of every free American to decry injustice and cast off the shackles of oppression, especially when they are wrought by one’s own leaders.

Holy crap, I’m late for Jive School! Professor Hepcat is gonna flip!

Hm. Well. Yeah…

But don’t you know how war works? We’re fighting for freedom! They’re fighting cuz they hate freedom! :stuck_out_tongue:

Absolutely. I was not claiming Australia to be free of sin; we certainly have shameful moments in our history. I was pointing out that it is not accurate to say “without liberty, something’s not American.” Quite clearly, America has been and still is associated with things devoid of liberty. Nowhere did I suggest that my country is perfect.

Innocence is presumed. You know that. If the two of them are so guilty, you should be able to prove that in a fair trial (rather than the current farce that even Hicks’ Pentagon-appointed lawyer is disgusted with). You know, a speedy trial and all that. And you shouldn’t have to stick them in some place where you can avoid giving them proper rights.

Besides, though hanging around with the Taliban is pretty stupid and reprehensible, it’s not necessarily terrorism. I’m not a fan of Hicks or Habib. But give them a proper trial rather than disappearing them on some island for years. A country with respect for liberty would do that. And, before you point it out, I know that my country’s government is complicit in their imprisonment. I include Australia as well as America in my criticism.

milum, I feel I’ve responded to your post in responding to gobear’s. If I’ve missed anything, feel free to point it out.

Fair enough. You make good points.

They were doing far more than that. Hicks was fighting aont heir side and Habib has ties to Al Qaeda. They are Bad Guys, not innocent victims of a frame-up.

You’re absolutely right. The people being held on Guantanamo are a disgrace to US pretensions to the higher moral ground in this conflict. There’s been enough time to try the prisoners and then imprison or repatriate them. The idea of an American gulag should disgust any true American.

Yeah, even my Dad, a Republican for nearly forty years (although more an liberal, Nelson Rockefeller-style NYC one) is pretty mad about Guatanamo Bay. So far he’s not changing his vote because he finds Kerry a distillation of every Democrat policy he has trouble with.

I think the problem is that, when you walk into the voting booth, you don’t get to vote for Kerry 30% and Bush 70% or whatever. I’m pro-life and therefore will not pull the lever for Kerry with a totally untroubled conscience. But the vote will be counted the same as one of his strongest supporters’ would. That’s just how it is.

Anyway, to get back to the OP: I maintain that America is one of the few nations founded on an idea that has grown organically and been debated and shaped by generations of people. Communism and such were imposed and society was molded to fit them. Of course the idea, which can be summed up simplistically as ‘freedom’ is going to be important, and of course it’s going to be the first thing we’re going to say about ourselves. It also is something all of our hugely varied ethnic groups can agree on, and has let us all work together to a degree that most other societies can only envy. No matter what nation they come from, some democratic, some far from it, each and every person who becomes a citizen here MUST swear an oath to this ideal. It’s not perfect and its parameters are always being reshaped but it’s always there.