I want to ask our American dopers a question. Do you equate USA with the word freedom? Are the two ideas indistinguishable, like synonyms? This does seem to be is the clear impression that is coming from you. Examples:
The national anthem - “home of the free”…
To make French fries “more American” they change the words to “Freedom Fries”
more recently…
Iraqis are fighting American troops because they hate freedom.
Is this what Americans generally view themselves as? To outsiders, does this point of view bother you? Would you see it as somewhat simplistic and maybe arrogant?
For me, well this is the one of the many things I find arrogant about some Americans, that some how they have cornered the freedom market. Another thing that bugs me is the whole extreme nationalism, it just smacks of arrogance.
I have noticed that this attitude is extremely more prevalent among Americans who are in America, then with those who are not. In other words, I see it more often in Americans when I travel to the US, opposed to Americans who are traveling FROM the US.
Just a thought from a non-American, but close neighbor.
The “freedom” thing always struck me as weird. Not that Americans are happy about having it but that it sometimes seems like a mantra for the whole country, that and nationalism/patriotism. I know there would be many things that seem weird about Ireland to outsiders BTW but our constant banging on about our freedoms is not one of them.
They kill us 'cause they don’t want to be free.
They hate us 'cause they’re re jealous of our freedom.
and on and on.
Yes America is one of the countries in this world that does have high levels of freedoms but to my foreign ears it does seem OTT almost all the time.
I’d guess it does lead to a lot of western anti-Americanism which is quite sad really as it’s really more just a cultural quirk than anything else IMO.
The US, while doing lots of bad things at the same time, used to be a political leader. It was advanced. The rest of the world has caught up. But the rhetoric remains.
Freedom and America are not synonyms. Taking a line from the national anthem, a stupid idea from some politicians looking to get free media attention, and a post on a message board are extremely limited examples, and extrapolating them to the general population of an extremely diverse nation is somewhat fuzzy logic. Canada also mentions freedom in their anthem. Mexico includes liberty. Turkey’s march of independence includes (roughly translated) the line “Freedom for us who worship God and seek what is right.” It is not merely an American trait.
Freedom is, in most people’s eyes, a wonderful blessing. People have fought, and died, for freedom, not just in the United States, but all over this world. It is something a country should strive every day for. It is no surprise that freedom is so revered. Trying to link your country, through anthems, rhetoric, or speechs, to the concept of freedom is not solely American, it has been done almost everywhere in the world for almost the entirety of civilization.
I would guess that a majority of Americans would asset that America is one of the most free countries in the world, Yes. Our Constitution created a country founded on the idea of freedom for its people. And there are no few people who fight everyday when they feel those freedoms are being challenged.
Of course it is simplistic. Just as simplistic as stating that Americans are arrogant for taking pride in their freedoms. I don’t think a majority of Americans think that they have cornered the freedom market, there are plenty of other countries that have, and continue to work for, freedom. And speaking only for myself, I am damn proud of the Constitution, the judicial system, and the people of America that work every day to protect our freedoms. Call it arrogance if you like, but I think that is a tad simplistic on your part.
However, I agree wholeheartedly with you when you state:
Extreme nationalism, “my country right or wrong”, and “we have to support the president in this time of war, no matter what” not only “bug” me, but terrify me to the bones. It’s one thing to be proud of your country and what it stands for, but another to be fascistly nationalistic and jingoistic to the point of stupidity. It is not only arrogant, it is downright scary.
America, especially our current administration, needs to pay a lot more attention to the way our country is perceived in other parts of the world. So far, they’ve done a woeful job of that, and the Anti-American feelings around the world will continue to grow unless they change the way they do business. But it is always good to get an outside perspective on our country.
One possible explanation is simply that the travelers are being polite. I’m sure that when you are traveling outside your homeland, you don’t go on and on about how much better it is back home. You’d probably converse more about the good points of the country you’re visiting.
Another is that you are seeing a different set of people. Most ordinary American folks don’t have the opportunity to travel to other countries, really, which is part of the reason many don’t have a good perspective on the issue. During a discussion of the “English only” rules that some have proposed, one of my co-workers commented, “Well, I bet in other countries they don’t have signs and stuff in English; why should we put their language on our signs?” I explained to him that yes, in many non-English-speaking countries you do in fact see multilingual signage, and that English would be one of the languages. Not a germane point except that it demonstrates that in many ways non-travelers (from any country) may tend to be somewhat provincial.
Hamlet, I agree with 99% of your post. Don’t know how long you’ve been around, but my observation is that pundits have been bemoaning “growing anti-American sentiment around the world” at least since the 1950s. I don’t remember before that, myself, but I would not be surprised to find a quote to that effect dating back to 1776!
In one of the Superman films (can’t remember which one but I think it’s the first one) someone asks Superman why he’s here. Superman replies:
“To fight for freedom and justice in the American way”
Huh? He’s an alien being who has travelled millions of miles to another planet - why does he care about the “American way”?
If he’d happened to land in Soviet Russia and been asked that question, would he have replied:
“To fight for workers and communism in the Soviet way”?
Or did he specifically come to America in order to fight for freedom. But why fight for freedom “in the American way”? Why not fight for freedom in the Australian way, say? Or the European way? or whatever? Does it have to be the “American way”?
I think Superman is full of shit. He doesn’t know jack about international political systems.
To help out, I’ll just turn on my patented Aldebarantronic 3000, and see what it has to say: whizzzzzzzz
clickclickclick
BING!
**Maybe such confrontation shall cure you from your disgusting arrogance.
Do you possess a functioning brain or was that something nature forgot to give you at birth?
I think I said it before to you: you need to learn how to read.
Now you show you can’t even read your own posts anymore.***
I hope this helps. Now maybe he/she/it won’t have to bother to show up in this thread.
[sub]*Actual quotes from Alde in Great Debates[/sub]
I was trying to stay out of it, but when someone badmouths the big red ‘S’ I have to speak up.
I can’t remember the exact movie wording, but Superman’s motto has always been ‘For Truth, Justice, and the American Way’ … not IN the American way.
Think about it. He was created by American authors. Shock! He has an American perspective. He’s always been portrayed as exemplifying the best qualities… truth, honesty, mercy, yadda yadda… ‘Boy Scout’, they call him. But also patriotism. He was used to sell war bonds, and did his time fighting Nazis starting not too long after he was invented… and that association stays with him to this day.
Even from the perspective of the character… he was raised by two kindly Kansan farmers with a love of country and strong values.
Maybe I’ve been whooshed … maybe not. But I should also point out they released a series of graphic novels dealing with a Soviet-landed Superman. ‘Red Son’ they were called. Interesting take on that hypothetical.
Jojo, it’s “freedom, justice, and the American way.” He did spend almost his entire life living in the United States and was adopted by American parents, so it’s not surprising he would identify as American, even if he’s not actually human.
Well, you do know that 95% of Americans made fun of the whole ‘freedom fries’ thing? We do have irony here, ya know.
The national anthem was written around 1815, I think, and set to an old English drinking song; it wasn’t made the official anthem until the 1930s.
Americans don’t sit around talking about freedom all the time, and if Americans abroad do, they’re probably being jerks. But most of us have veterans somewhere in the family who went overseas sometime in the past or now (my little brother got back from Kuwait last night, in fact) and some are buried there, because America fights for its ideals and no nation has ever had to send troops here for nearly 200 years. We were founded on an idea instead of a bunch of people who just happened to have been here since the Ice Age or whatever. Granted, it was imperfect with slavery and all, but people still choose to come here and, unlike many European countries, are allowed to become full citizens.
It’s an idealism that’s very deeply ingrained in us and allows the nation to function while harboring groups that “back home” tear each other up over, to our eyes, nothing important.
Freedom (or liberty, which is essentially synonymous in the sense we’re using the words here) is part of the… uh… mythos—is that the word I’m looking for?—of the U.S.A. Look at some of our national icons: the Statue of Liberty, the Liberty Bell, “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,” the Bill of Rights and the freedoms it guarantees, “the land of the free,” “let freedom ring”… and so on. In a vastly oversimplified explanation of the American Revolution, we were fighting for freedom. We didn’t want a monarch or a repressive government or a state church telling us what to do. The people who emigrated to the USA came in search of freedom. And at least in the early years it probably was one of the freest places on earth*, and its people and its leaders were proud of that and valued it highly.
Nowadays, some of the rest of the world has caught up with the U.S., or even surpassed it in certain aspects. And it may be that one reason for this has been the US’s example. (The French Revolution, for example, was at least a little bit inspired by the American Revolution.)
*The glaring exception was, of course, the institution of slavery, and critics of the US frequently pointed out the irony that slavery flourished in the so-called “land of the free.” Though a Southern slave-owner would probably have said, “Hell, yeah, I believe in freedom: the freedom to live the way I want, and to own slaves if I want to.”
rjung is precisely right. However, back in the mid-1700s the kind of society that was being created in the American colonies was different. The kind of hereditary aristocracy that existed in Europe at the time was not welcome. Yes, there was obviously inheritance of wealth, but the new government created had no hereditary offices in it. That’s one huge difference. Yes, there was a much higher degree of freedom and self-government in England than in many other places at the time, but the House of Lords still exists.
Even the military, such as is was, was different. During the French & Indian war that preceded the American Revolution, there was a great deal of disconnect between the American and the British in this regard. European soldiers were enlisted (or conscripted) because they had little or no alternative. They were treated as the scum of the earth, who had to absolutely obey their officers or suffer horrific lashings or even execution. In contrast the colonial enlisted man, who probably had a farm or a business already, saw no particular reason to kowtow to some Englishman in a fancy outfit or his neighbor from across the street who had for some reason been placed in charge of a group of soldiers. The British interpreted this as more evidence that the Americans were lazy, disrepectful louts who didn’t understand the proper order of society. The contrast to the hired German soldiers was just as striking.
There was, and still is, a good deal of pride in the fact that a person can start from humble beginnings and become POTUS. Yes, a lot have had a big head start. Abe Lincoln is generally cited as the prime example, but Bill Clinton is just the most recent example of starting from humble beginnings. No current-day Englishman can reasonably expect to grow up to be King. Prime Minister, yes, King, no.
My point is simply that a lot of current feeling is based on historical situations, many of which no longer exist.
While not all thing that equal liberty are American, without liberty, something’s not American.
The fundamental of liberty is that humans have certain inalienable rights, among them the right to deny consent to their government to govern them.
Recognition of this right as self-evidentially inalienable is the crux of American liberty. Denial of the right of the governed to deny consent to their government is the begining of all the unfortunate forms of government that tend to oppress their populace.
