Hi, I’ve been lurking for quite awhile now and I’m going to try to post a little before this membership expires. Having seen the quality of the posts made in this board I must say that I’m quite reserved in joining this thread. I hope this is enough to explaination should I ever find myself in a quagmire.
iamme99:
I would like to direct you to this passage:
“Meanwhile, tribal leaders in Kut – apparently disgusted with the violence incited by radical Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr – have fought with his milita and plan to hand the southern Iraqi city over to U.S. forces, an American-led coalition source close to the situation said Friday.”
This may not fulfill your need for “evidence of the average Iraqi standing up to the militants, turning them in to the authorities or outright killing them themselves,” but if the Iraq’s own security forces are beginning to take things into their own hands, and things are quieting down, we may not need the average Iraqi doing what you’d like them to do. I think it’s better that way too - it establishes lawfulness.
I can only believe that we and this supposed majority are destined to fail. You can’t force a democracy on a country where the people don’t want it bad enough to die for it.
There are Iraqis willing to die for democracy. They can be found in their new army.
I don’t think we’re forcing them into a democracy as in outright ironfist coercion. It’s like saying we’re forcing a musician who loves to play music, to play music. And if we put a gun up to him and say, “stop playing,” do you think he should not be allowed to play if he doesn’t fight you?
Kimstu:
However, I don’t see why they should knock themselves out for the sake of (what they believe to be, at least) a puppet government that will essentially be running their country for the ultimate benefit of a foreign superpower, even if they might experience some positive side effects from it.
This is a slight nit-pick, but it does bother me that you would (or Iraqis would) say there is a puppet government in place. IMHO Bremer looks like he’s doing everything on his own there. He’s asking for funding and assistance when he needs it of course, but I doubt Bush is micromanaging him like a puppet. If you’re talking about what the government will be in the future - well I don’t think we nor the Iraqis will know whether or not it will be puppet until the details of it are released, and after the elections take place a year later. Until then it’s speculation.
skutir
What you really want to ask is, do Iraqis really want a KFC franchise in downtown Baghdad? The answer is “no,” hence the problem. They’re glad SH is gone, but they don’t want to be a US colony.
What you can also ask is, would Iraqis like to see a Baghdad Fried Lamb franchise in downtown Baghdad, or Riyadh, or Abu Dabhi, or Tokyo, London… New York?
You’re right, no one wants Iraq to be a US colony. I doubt Iraq is going to turn into one. I certainly hope not, if it comes down to hoping. Has the US ever colonized any nation since World War II though?
eolbo:
Ever considered that if we asked the insurgents they would tell us that that is exactly what they are currently doing?
Just curious, do you think that justifies their actions? If so, why? If not, do you have any points to make?
sailor:
I hear an anecdote that President Reagan was talking with the Japanese premier and saying Japan should buy more American cars and the Japanese premier answered to the effect that why should the Japanese buy American cars when even the Americans were not buying American cars.
Japan hasn’t had any revolutions or coups since we left them after World War II right? If this is true this shows that democracy can happen in places of foreign cultures while bringing tremendous prosperity. Iraq already has a head start with its oil supply. We just need to make sure the security issue is settled soon, which, probably contrary to your beliefs, can still be salvaged.
Some people just do not seem to understand that, just because they like something it does not mean everybody else likes it or wants it.
Read your anecdote again. I think one thing we get out of it is that Americans and Japanese don’t buy American cars. Doesn’t that mean we have the same tastes as the Japanese, which means gasp there’s always a majority of people who do like the same things?
Anyway, it’s true that people have different preferences over different things, after all that’s why we have so many different political systems and favorite colors. You’re right about that and I understand you there. I do, however, want to address those undertones claiming that Iraqis don’t want a democracy. As iamme99 has said, there seems to be more support in Iraq for democracy than many of us believe.
It is this kind of ignorance which leads to wars like this. The notion that Iraqis would want what Americans like.
If we want Iraqis to have what we have, we wouldn’t be giving sovereignty, we wouldn’t be encouraging them to take charge, we wouldn’t be giving them their own government. It was expressed to us that the Iraqis wanted a change through various opposition groups and accounts on the ground (if you really. really need a cite, say so). I also think that democracy was not the only reason we went into this war. There are many others and hopefully, to this administration and the coming administration (if it should be different), good reasons.
ignorance leads to wars
I agree, and I think that applies to all factions involved. In this case - the U.S., Saddam, the opposition groups, the Iraqi people. That doesn’t make a war more or less necessary though.
Anyway, all I really want to say is that there are Iraqis who care enough to fight for democracy and I suppose that answers the OP’s question. Argh, new posts. I think they support the fact that Iraqis want democracy.
Reeder:
All most of the Iraqi’s want is to be able to live their lives, raise their children, go to work, worship their God. Without worrying about them or their loved ones dying. In other words live a normal life.
We’re trying the hardest we can to give them this, and more. If we withdrawal, that’s not going to happen for a LONG time.
ccwaterback:
So it almost seems that the Iraqis intend to be fractious nation, they want to disagree with each other, they want to have conflict in their country. It’s all about MY religious ideals are right, and yours are wrong. There is NO negotiation, no compromise, we disagree, we kill each other.
Not all of them. Only a few who we really need to subdue.
A poll of 2,700 out of 25,000,000? The results of this polls like that are negligible.
Would you prefer no poll at all?
WOOOO i’m done. post!