I want to start by saying I don’t really know anything about this war, or politics in general, so I am not going to be able to contribute much to this debate. I was going to post it in GQ, but I think the subject matter would have turned it into a debate anyway, so I am going to post it here…
Why are there so many Iraqi people protesting to get the U.S. out of Iraq? I mean just last week they were dancing in the streets, now they want us to leave? The thing that confuses me the most is this: what do they think is going to happen if we leave? I think the most likely result of us leaving would be that Saddam, or people loyal to him, would take their remaining tanks and military supplies and use them to get back into power. The second most likely scenario I can see is that some other dictator rises to power.
It just seems to me that a legitimate government has no chance of forming out of total anarchy. At least with U.S. forces there to keep the bad guys from strong arming their way back to the top, there is a chance that some form of democracy could get started. I don’t know…
Some of them were dancing in the streets. Others were shooting at us, trying to blow us up, and generally condemning out high-handed attitude.
While they probably are glad that the Ba’ath party is pretty well destroyed, many are quite fearful that the U.S. intends to set up a new puppet regime. (The prime figure hinted to be the U.S. choice to head up the interim government was originally chosen simply to organize the infrastructure while a government was created. He then began lobbying certain members of the GOP to be allowed to run the whole show, even though he has not lived in the country for 30 years, or so.)
We may do the right thing, but they have no way of knowing that. Given our sterling examples of Diem in Vietnam, the Shah in Iran, Armas in Guatemala, and our support for such democratic-minded individuals as Marcos, Suharto, Batista, Somoza, and others, I think their fears are not unexpected.
Does this mean that the protesters think that a legitimate and fair government would form just by following the teachings of Islam? I don’t know much about Islam, but I am sure the main pillars are similar to most other religions. Be kind, don’t steal, don’t kill…blah, blah, blah. If that is the case then, yeah, maybe they don’t need us. They can work it out, but are they really that naive? Can they honestly think that religion will guide them through this? Do they really believe that no one will try to rise to power?
They don’t want our help. Maybe you didn’t know this, but the Arab world hates the U.S. government. A lot of it has to do with our support for Isreal. It might help to understand if you take a step back and let go of your black & white thinking where the U.S. are the “good guys” and the Arabs are the “bad guys”. You can’t expect the people of Iraq to view it that way. They don’t want the U.S. to rule their country, because they see it as the Christian world trying to take over the Muslim world. They hated Saddam, but a lot of them hate the U.S. even more.
they want to be able to determine their own destiny, not have another destiny thrust upon them. Of course idiots will try to rise in power, that happens everywhere.
Partially because many of them don’t like our culture or what it stands for (the secularist non-islam, the nonthe support of israel, the modernization), many have been raised to scapegoat us for their own countries screw ups and believe in conspiracy theories and as a result don’t trust/like us. Plus most don’t want to be humiliated by living under US occupation.
Sad part is if we leave who knows what’ll happen. maybe a civil war like Somalia will take hold and warlords will rise to power. we should bring in foreigners to run things.
I do not think we are the “good guys” and the Arabs are the “bad guys”. Some of people in the U.S. are good and some are bad, and the same applies to all other parts of the world. This is not the debate I was aiming for in the OP though. I know that not ALL Iraqis want us out. I was just wondering what the people that do want us out think is going to happen if we leave. Maybe the answer is that they think we are so “bad” that they are willing to face any consequences to have us out rather than let us help. Do you think that is the case?
Yeah, like the group of people that could run things, and the group of people who the Iraqis wouldn’t hate, are mutually exclusive. The best compromise between the two would likely be Turkey - they’re at least Arab, and their own attempt at democracy seems to be going well - except Turkey would probably just go in and grab all the Kurdish territory.
We’re just going to have to find someone the Iraqis can trust, and get their backing. The get the hell out as fast as we reasonably can.
Jeff
Some want to quickly fill the power vacuum themselves so they get their form of gov’t, and not ours. I’m sure many want an Islamic state-- perhaps a backlash against SH’s secularism.
Some may be truely anti-Western, anti-American and think we’re there to steal their oil.
Iraq has a history of invasions, and of hating invaders. Like it or not, we are seen by many as invaders.
I’ll bet that some ARE naiive and even if they don’t want an Islamic state, think they can get their won democractic gov’t going w/o our help.
Yes, I do. They aren’t all of one mind, though. Some Iraqis have complained that the U.S. forces didn’t do enough to keep order after toppling the government, while others just want them gone.
The Turks are not Arabs. They are Turkic. There is a large and growing fundamentalist movement there, too, putting a strain on their democracy on the order of the Kurdish rebellion in Turkey’s southeast. They did mass troops along the border in clear preparation for what you suspect, though.
Good luck. Bush alienated all the plausible candidates beforehand - both the individual nations and the pre-eminent international organization.
Sorry, champ, he stuck us US taxpayers and terrorism targets with the entire responsibility for years to come, for better or worse. Many of us tried to explain that beforehand, too.
horhay, Islamic law, called “Sharia”, is well-established and codified, and even the basis for the effective law of several nations. While not necessarily desirable, implementing it is hardly a naive concept.
