French Fries

[naita]

Thanks. These look good.

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

samclem, you can take insulin if you’re a dialectic.

[Irishman]

Pez - Gack! You can eat them either with ketchup or mayonnaise, but not both at once. My stomach is churning at the thought.

Jack-in-the-box makes their sourdough jack. In the past it came with just mayonnaise. Recently I ordered one and it came with both. I discovered that the two condiments do not play well together.

[Manduck]

Vinegar, man, vinegar! Ketchup? Hwaaack-ptui!

[Chronos]

I discovered that the two condiments do not play well together.

So I take it you’re not a fan of Russian or Thousand Island dressings? Russian is just ketchup and mayo, and Thousand Island is the same plus pickle relish.

As for myself, I’m a fan of mayonaise, and I did once try it on fries, but it just didn’t seem to work right. Ketchup is good on fries, vinegar is good, salt is good, and MSG is good, but not mayo.

[elfje]

just another comment on what Cecil wrote:

“Europeans generally first thought that the potato was poisonous, a common accusation against members of the genus Solanum, which includes deadly nightshade and tomatoes (another new world food that was also considered poisonous when brought to Europe”

the reason why Europeans first thought they were poisenous was because they ate the foliage, which is poisenous.
When they knew which part of the potato were safe to ate, the earthappel (aardappel) really took off.

And Frenching means cutting in strips, not French the nationality!!!

[leander]

I think that the conclusions drawn by Dex are fairly weak:

And so we arrive at your question. For also in the 1840s, pomme frites (“fried potatoes”) first appeared in Paris. Sadly, we don’t know the name of the ingenious chef who first sliced the potato into long slender pieces and fried them. But they were immediately popular, and were sold on the streets of Paris by push-cart vendors

You present no cite for the “appearance” of frites in Paris in the 1840s, and certainly no cite that this was the first appearance of fried potatoes anywhere in the world. Others have provided cites that fries appeared first in Belgium, and a quick search of the web will substantiate these claims. (I say “claims” as there is no actual proof either way where fries were originally invented, only more anectodal evidence from Belgium than France.)

Frites spread to America where they were called French fried potatoes. You asked how they got their name–pretty obvious, I’d say: they came from France, and they were fried potatoes, so they were called “French fried potatoes.” The name was shortened to “french fries” in the 1930s.

By the way, the verb “to french” in cooking has come to mean to cut in long, slender strips, and some people insist that “french fries” come from that term. However, the French fried potato was known since the middle 1800s, while the OED cites the first use of the verb “to french” around 1895, so it appears pretty convincing that “french fried potatoes” came before the verb “frenching.” The origin of the name is thus the country of origin French and not the cooking term french.

Simply saying that they “came from France” (though perhaps not originated in France) and were fried potatoes is not a sufficient explanation. Especially as you do not state when the name came into existence, or if it was based on the fact that France invented it or if it was a misnomer attributed to the language. (Some claim that the English name comes from American, English, Candian, and Australian soldiers in WWI who were in the West of Flanders where French was spoken.)

In short, simply because they are called French fries, and appeared at one point in France, does not prove that they originated there. Especially as there are ample cites showing otherwise, and few provided by you to back up your claim.

(FWIW, I don’t think the origin of the name “French fries” can be factually discerned. But I’d hate to see the Straight Dope claim something as absolutely true when it is quite possibly not.)

[samclem]

In short, simply because they are called French fries, and appeared at one point in France, does not prove that they originated there. Especially as there are ample cites showing otherwise, and few provided by you to back up your claim.

leander I think that the cites provided as to the origin being Belgian are equally as weak. I have yet to see a factual example of a print cite showing a Belgian origin.
elfje said

And Frenching means cutting in strips, not French the nationality!!!

Can you give me a print cite to show where “frenching” means cutting in strips? I agree with you that that is the modern meaning. Just curious if you know when it started?

[elfje]

http://www.belgianfries.com/

go to the history section, it’s all there

mvg,

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

Sorry, elfje, but that site doesn’t tell WHEN the word “frenching” meant to cut in strips.

Here’s the deal, from the staff report:

However, the French fried potato was known since the middle 1800s, while the OED cites the first use of the verb “to french” around 1895, so it appears pretty convincing that “french fried potatoes” came before the verb “frenching.”

My cite on the use of the verb “to french” is the Oxford English Dictionary; I don’t remember where I got the use of “French fried potato” as coming from the 1860s, I need to get a free day to go back and review my sources, but my guess is that it was the Oxford Encyclopedia of Food or some similar reference.

No comment on the fact that this “history of the fries” site lists languages, and lists “Canada - Quebec” but not “Canada - non-Quebec.”

[kniz]

*Originally posted by Lisa Ann *
**Mustard! **

This dates back so far that an order of french fries cost 25 cents. At the local hang-out it was common for someone to just get french fries to snack on. One evening, I walked up to a good friend and noticed he had mustard on his fries. I asked why in the world would he do that. He answered that it kept people from coming up and taking a fry or two.

originally posted by Chronos
Ketchup is good on fries, vinegar is good, salt is good, and MSG is good, but not mayo.

[ul]Ditto![/ul]

[samclem]

elfje (and Dex):

If you scroll up about 15 posts, you see that I offered a cite in print from 1828. It said

THE COOK AND HOUSEWIFE’S MANUAL by Mrs. Margaret Dods
The Third Edition
Edinburgh: Oliver and Boyd, and Bell and Bradfute
1828
"Pg. 220: The French fry sliced potatoes in goose-dripping, (Pg. 221–ed.) which has a very high relish; and before serving, drain them on a towel before the fire.

Note! Ms. Dods didn’t refer to the potatoes as Belgian fries, or Belgian fried. She specifically called them “French fry sliced potatoes.” This was 1828.

I don’t mean to infer that the potatoes that Ms. Dods cooked up would in any way resemble what the world knows today as “French fries.”

elfje. Your Belgian fry site is full of potential, but short on kinetic.
From that site

Pictures and texts proof that fries were all around our country in the second half of the 19th century. The oldest written proof is dated 1862 and mentions a certain Fritz and the widow Descamps as owners of a fry stand on the Liège ‘kermis’. In 1891 a picture of both stands was taken.

Jo Gerard, a famous Belgian historian, claims to have proof that fries were invented in the region of the Meuse in 1680. Based on an unpublished document, he writes that the poor inhabitants of this region ate mostly fish. When the river frooze, they cut their potatous in a fish-shape and fried them.

I’d love to see the actual print cite about Fritz and the widow Descamps from 1862. Can you find it for us? I’d also love to see the proof that Jo Gerard has about the 1680 frozen river. Sounds “fishy” to me. But I could be convinced when I see the written word.

Belgium still could have been the originator of frying potatoes, but there seems to be a lack of actual print evidence. Rather, the evidence so far favors the French, at least in the 19th century.

[John_W.Kennedy]

Well, actual evidence from France (or Belgium) is stronger than the mere use of the name “French” in a foreign country.

[samclem]

actual evidence from France (or Belgium) is stronger than the mere use of the name “French” in a foreign country.

John, I agree. But so far there has been no evidence from France or Belgium. Just supposition. And unproven assertions.

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

Thanks, Sam, I had a brain hiccough and forgot you had found an early 1800s cite. Which makes nonsense of the notion that the term came from the verb “to french” as in cut into strips, which does not appear until the end of the 1800s.

On the name “french fries”, there won’t be a French or Belgian source, of course, since that’s not what they’re called there. It would only be an American ref to “French fries.”

On the history of the creation, it’s unclear what would constitute proof of the invention of the critters. The Oxford Encyclopedia of Food cites their appearance in Paris in the 1840s. A Belgian reference from 1862 is thus LATER.

[leander]

*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven *
On the history of the creation, it’s unclear what would constitute proof of the invention of the critters.

Thus it is impossible to state with any certainty the factual origin/creation of french fries. Which should be made perfectly clear in your staff report, yet is not.

[samclem]

Thus it is impossible to state with any certainty the factual origin/creation of french fries. Which should be made perfectly clear in your staff report, yet is not.

You are correct leander. Etymology is an ever changing field. I think Dex’s article was well written, given his available resources. He was probably still correct in his assertions. I was able to find cites which he couldn’t, mainly because I have a specialized interest in etymology and have taken the time and money to go beyond what Dex found.

If you, or anyone else on the board can offer a print cite for “fried potatoes” or anything related to the topic, I’ll be much obliged. Especially welcome would be a cite in French or Flemish. Please give the dates and source. Something prior to my 1828 cite would be useful, as it would push back the origin of the dish. Vague, general description about unpublished works don’t work.

The StraightDope does the best it can. It’s pretty damn good most of the time. Like anything in life, new information comes to light and we can sometimes be fortunate enough to come closer to understanding the origins of a phrase or word. In this case, I’m sure the dish goes back far enough that we’ll never get a seminal cite. But let’s take it back as far as we can with some actual proof.

[leander]

samclem, agreed. However, until such point as we can find actual proof, I think it should be noted that no clear origin of french fries is available, despite claims from both sides.

[Irishman]

One minor quibble, samclem. Your quote seems best interpreted as “The French (that group of people from France) fry (verb, act of frying) sliced potatoes…” as opposed to “The French fry sliced potatoes (descriptive name of objects)”.

That does beat the “French as slicing” argument, but I think still leaves the origin of fried potatoes open between Belgium and France.

[John_W.Kennedy]

Yes, I’d agree that that is the only grammatical interpretation.