I was reading in my “French in 15 minutes per day” that it is no faux pas to mispronounce/use wrong case/use wrong tense etc…
when you are an American in France and try to speak their language because the French people are flattered that you are trying to learn their language. This sounds to me like le crock. In the US, people laugh at foreigners butchering the language-or despise them for wasting their time, and i suspect that our gallic cousins are hardly more tolerant than we. Is the book wrong?
Also, the same book says that the French are very proper in their conversation i.e., they use good manners in speaking as opposed to our casual speaking. True, untrue or just outdated info?
handsomeharry writes:
> In the US, people laugh at foreigners butchering the language-
> or despise them for wasting their time . . .
Perhaps among the people you know this would happen, but most of the people I know would never do such a thing.
do they speak english?
Yes, and they would never treat another person in such a mean-spirited way. Does it ever occur to you that the way that your friends act isn’t typical of the way most people in the U.S. act?
well, i never said that any of my friends do this. please don’t lecture me on what should be done. i know what should be done. what i don’t know is the answer to the questions that i asked.
I’ve got to say that I never felt much disdain from the French (even in Paris) when I tried out my pathetic French on them. But maybe I was just oblivious… The only real rudeness (if you could call it that) I found was that they would quickly speak English to me (if they could) as if to say: Pls don’t waste my time. But I never begrudged them that-- I probably was wasting their time.
In two trips to Paris, I have never found the stereotypical rude French people. But I always made the effort to speak in French first. Like John Mace, I found that as soon as I did, most of them replied in English. A few seemed willing to allow me to practice my French with slight amusement, but nothing that rose to the level of rudeness.
a quick hijack:
When a french person starts speaking in english, it is not because they want you to stop wasting your time; they are just trying to help you…
And that is a fact for most french people (including myself - although I’m not french from france), but for some reason I found that most enlgish people find it rude…and I really don’t know why!
if I’d go to the states and someone tries to speak french with me, I would be delighted and invite him/her for a drink for sure…
As to the OP
-I would find it more correct for a stranger to try to speak to me in french, even if it’s really bad(that is, only when I’m in a french place - i.e. quebec).
For example: if I go to the states, I try my luck in english, if I’m in Italy, I try Italian first…and so on…if someone happens to speak my language, then good!
For the record, I’ve visited Montreal quite a bit, and if I use the wrong tense or what have you, people generally tend to understand what I’m saying. If someone’s speaking poor English but you get what they’re trying to say, then I say Kudos@ForTrying.com
generally, handsome harry, you will discover that no matter where you go in the world, any attempt at speaking the local language is usually met with warmth, and not derision. i speak about 2 languages well, and 5 languages badly, including french (badly.) when i was in paris, i did not experience any sort of humiliation or discomfort in using french. none of the typical french stereotypes came to pass in my journeys there. and everywhere else i’ve been, i’ve had the same experience. people usually are flattered…especially the more obscure a language is.
the us is an immigrant country, and i find it surprising that you should say people in the us laugh or deride people “butchering” their language. perhaps you didn’t grow up in an urban environment, but i’ve always considered english to be a very forgiving language grammatically.
handsomeharry, are you saying that most Americans would prefer that foreigners speak in their native language rather than bad English? I don’t think so, I think it’s common courtesy to use the language of the country you are in, at least initially. And only switch if that makes it easier for both.
My brother is here with me, he works in Paris & says that the French are very good with those learning the lingo.
What they react badly to is people who walk up & address them in English with no attempt at all to even say bonjour. As for manners, yes, you say hello when you enter a shop & goodbye when you leave.They are quite formal & polite.
I think it is pretty much true that foreigners speaking bad french in Paris might not be warmly welcomed*, but otherwise, I have found that the French are like everyone else, accommodating towards those who do not speak the language and pleased when they try.
*The same is probably true of any large city, perhaps we should send someone with Germanic features into the heart of New York and get him to ask “Which way please to Tie-meez Skveer?”
I’d also heard that mixing up your tu’s and vous could cause a snit. Is this true?
(Heh - also anecdotally, my Grd. 7 French teacher once took some students to France. She swears she had the hardest time with one waiter, who didn’t let them know until afterwards that that was actually du cheval. ;))
I concur with most of the above posts. I have been touristing in Paris a few times (Wonderful City) and always try out my meagre pigeon French on the locals. I’m sure they always know you are foreign, even when you try your very best ‘fluent’ accent. I found they give a little smile then talk back on English, while sometimes mentioning the correct pronunciation (not in a patronising or condescending way either).
It’s amazing how much of your 1984 exam French you remember. I even got asked directions from a French woman while at the Place de la Concorde - and I managed an answer, in French, got a ‘merci’ then walked on feeling very happy for myself, not one word of English spoken…lol
Well, I wouldn’t say that people cause a snit exactly, but since it’s very easy to figure out whether you should use tu or vous, and if you use the wrong one you are likely being deliberately rude and insulting, then you can see why people would be offended when referred to by the wrong pronoun. If you call someone tu who is obviously vous, you will probably get that “taken aback” look and some raised eyebrows, same as if you walked up to a distinguished white-haired lady on Park Avenue, and said, “Hey toots, what’s shakin’, and by the way how old are you?”
When in such doubt that you just can’t decide, use vous. Most of the time you will be right.
thanks, all. btw, just learned this last week in my French Revolution class, but the Tu Vous thing WAS a big thing in France during the Terror. You could lose the old head if you said the wrong one!
Much like the Spanish “tu” and “usted”, “the Tu Vous thing” is a matter of formality. I learned this when I was speaking to (get this) the parents of my cousin’s friend. I was saying Tu this and Tu that, and only afterwards my cousin told me that wasn’t right. I felt really embarassed, but the parents understood.
Usually, if you are referring to somebody older than you, unless they are family, you use Vous. You use Tu with friends or anyone else you know very well. In general, vous is considered polite and is advisable to use anytime.
Slang is another difference - it isn’t really what the OP is asking, but I just wanted to comment that Quebecers speak a much more casual french than the French do, and occasionally odd looks and laughs can come from a Quebec french/french conversation. Certain words which are considered outdated or very formal in Quebec are used regularly in France, and Quebec has developped some of its own words as well.
Right now the only example that comes to mind is depanneur/depanneuse. In Quebec, the first is a convenience store, while the second…well, it isnt used. In france, the first isn’t even a word, and the second is a towtruck. Quebecers call a tow truck “une remorqueuse” (I don’t even know if that word is used in France). Depanneur is a corruption of depanneuse, since it essentially “gets you out of a jam” when you need toilet paper or milk!
http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/Quebecois.html has a fun list of Quebecois slang.
From my experiences in France, they were thrilled that we’d make the effort to try and communicate in their language. Same with other countried I visited. (Italy, Germany, Yugoslavia, etc)
There was usually a mutual amusement factor as well. I’d know I was messing up and laughing, and they’d be trying their best to help out. I was never treated like an ignorant tourist on my travels.
I think it depends on how you approach. If you’re rude and loud, be prepared to be treated like merde.