French President Sarkozy Wants to Ban Burkas

[Lochdale]

And quite frankly I don’t think there is anything wrong with the French “protecting their culture”. There are practical reasons why the full lenght outfits are problematic. However, they also act as an additional barrier to integration and further the “them and us” mentality. This is not all the doing of the French. It can be seen, and often is, a clear statement that they do not want to be part of the French/western society. And I am sorry but that can be damaging to society as a whole particularly given the numbers involved.

This isn’t the French being an old man and not understanding Islam but a very real and honest reaction to a sub-group within society who want nothing to do with that society. That can be tolerated when the numbers are small but given the sheer number of Muslims in France it becomes a much trickier issue.

[Guinastasia]

@Lochdale

And quite frankly I don’t think there is anything wrong with the French “protecting their culture”. There are practical reasons why the full lenght outfits are problematic. However, they also act as an additional barrier to integration and further the “them and us” mentality. This is not all the doing of the French. It can be seen, and often is, a clear statement that they do not want to be part of the French/western society. And I am sorry but that can be damaging to society as a whole particularly given the numbers involved.

This isn’t the French being an old man and not understanding Islam but a very real and honest reaction to a sub-group within society who want nothing to do with that society. That can be tolerated when the numbers are small but given the sheer number of Muslims in France it becomes a much trickier issue.

Couldn’t this also be compared to some of the way immigrants here in the USA were treated during the late 19th, early 20th century?

[Dangerosa]

@Guinastasia

Couldn’t this also be compared to some of the way immigrants here in the USA were treated during the late 19th, early 20th century?

I don’t think so. The American culture has never been anything other than a melting pot. There isn’t 1500 years of “being American.” We were still forming our identity. Yeah, Americans didn’t treat immigrants well - and still don’t. But I think the motivation is different.

Although I think you so see this in the U.S. in areas with a large Mexican immigrant population. The pressure to make others assimilate seems driven in part by feeling threatened.

[griffin1977]

@Omniscient

In the U.S. such a thing might even be unconstitutional.

MIGHT be unconstitutional! In the same way making criticizing the government illegal or making the president the head of a “Church of America” might be a tinsy bit on the unconstitutional side.

This kind of law is exactly WHY first amendment exists. I’m sure we have enough jackasses in the US to get something like this put into law, but even the most conservative judge would strike it down immediately. This is why a written constitution is a good thing.

[Omniscient]

@griffin1977

MIGHT be unconstitutional! In the same way making criticizing the government illegal or making the president the head of a “Church of America” might be a tinsy bit on the unconstitutional side.

This kind of law is exactly WHY first amendment exists. I’m sure we have enough jackasses in the US to get something like this put into law, but even the most conservative judge would strike it down immediately. This is why a written constitution is a good thing.

:rolleyes:

Did you even read the thread?

[Kobal2]

@begbert2

As for all the mocking of the idea that France might make an argument for this on the basis of cultural preservation - wasn’t France the country with a verifiable tendency to actively preserve culture? I mean, I’m not that familiar with the country, but that’s the impression I’ve gotten. Didn’t they have an officially sanctioned group or something for the ‘preservation’ of the language, to keep it from evolving? That would seem to be exactly the thing we’re talking about here - using government action to keep their culture from changing. So, while such a thing would never fly in america, I don’t see why it’s automatically absurd to think that France might decide to implement such a thing. They would hardly be the first country to codify aspects of their culture - even america had blue laws.

For what it’s worth, the dear old men at the Académie are generally laughed at, and the institution itself is wildly out of touch. Membership is more like a Nobel Prize in Conservative Writing than the drive behind French culture… or even a part of it.

ETA : oh, and the Francophonie isn’t really about keeping the language from evolving - more about promoting the use of French everywhere, and evolving “the right way”. I personally think it’s beyond silly to coin neologisms in order not to use loanwords, but hey, I’m a linguist, not a politician

[Latro]

@Dangerosa

I’m not sure I buy that line of reasoning either (ok, I know I don’t, the French can protect their culture by refusing immigration, but if they want the cheap menial labor being provided by immigrants, they’ll need to accept these people bring in their own culture) - but I like the “protecting our culture” better than the paternalistic “protecting those women.” And I suspect its a lot truer to the real motivation.

I think you are right but, as already stated, this leaves one open to the accusation of…Racism!!!..
EEeeeek!! take cover everyone there’s racists about!!!

This ever present fear of being accused of racism, cramps up a lot of the reasoning and solution finding.

Personally I would think nothing wrong in a country imposing, to some extent, what does not constitute ‘proper dress’. Strict Islamic countries have every right to ask of our visiting women not to wear skirts and wear a scarf. And they do.

We, in turn can ask the same of our immigrants. I freely admit that I just hate the sight of burqa’s in my streets. It’s the feeling I get. And why shouldn’t my feelings be respected in this?

[Latro]

To expand a bit more on this ‘feeling’ I get from burqa’s or even headscarfs.

I feel that these items of clothings convey (and are meant to convey) the message “Hey you Heathen!, we are here and we will stay here! You had better get used to it, 'cause frankly there’s nothing you can do about it. You’re going the way of the dodo.”

And I’m just looking around asking myself " Here!? Where did my country go?"

[Linty_Fresh]

@Latro

To expand a bit more on this ‘feeling’ I get from burqa’s or even headscarfs.

I feel that these items of clothings convey (and are meant to convey) the message “Hey you Heathen!, we are here and we will stay here! You had better get used to it, 'cause frankly there’s nothing you can do about it. You’re going the way of the dodo.”

And I’m just looking around asking myself " Here!? Where did my country go?"

Sorry, maybe I’m just not fully awake yet, but how is this not racism?

I freely admit that I just hate the sight of burqa’s in my streets. It’s the feeling I get. And why shouldn’t my feelings be respected in this?

I’ll just bet some other French people hate the sight of homosexuals in the street. Or of punk outfits. Or black people. Those people are probably saying to themselves “Here!? Where did my country go?” Why makes your stupid uninformed opinion appropriate to act on and their’s not?

Personally I would think nothing wrong in a country imposing, to some extent, what does not constitute ‘proper dress’. Strict Islamic countries have every right to ask of our visiting women not to wear skirts and wear a scarf. And they do.

Hmmmmm . . . Here’s a thought. Maybe strict Islamic countries are different, because they’re . . . not democracies? Maybe the constitutions of strict Islamic countries–if they exist at all in every one–are written according to . . . ohhhh, I’m just spitballing here, but . . . Islam? Just a thought.

On what basis do you judge what’s appropriate French dress and what’s not? I mean, unless you want to make it mandatory for French people to wear floppy berets and go about their business dressed up like mimes without the make-up. Hey, I’ve seen the old movies.

[Latro]

@Linty_Fresh

Sorry, maybe I’m just not fully awake yet, but how is this not racism?

Perhaps you are not, or more awake than I am.
Please point out the race factor in this.

I’ll just bet some other French people hate the sight of homosexuals in the street. Or of punk outfits. Or black people. Those people are probably saying to themselves “Here!? Where did my country go?” Why makes your stupid uninformed opinion appropriate to act on and their’s not?

Because it is my country, my opinions (who says they are uniformed, anyway?) however stupid you may think them, on what is appropriate or not are not magically trumped by the opinions of immigrants.

Hmmmmm . . . Here’s a thought. Maybe strict Islamic countries are different, because they’re . . . not democracies? Maybe the constitutions of strict Islamic countries–if they exist at all in every one–are written according to . . . ohhhh, I’m just spitballing here, but . . . Islam? Just a thought.

And where exactly does democracy fit in all this??
Or is it just a word you like to hear early in the morning?

What I am saying is that if I have to respect other peoples cultures when I visit and certainly when I decide to go and live there, why can’t I ask the same from those who come to my country?

On what basis do you judge what’s appropriate French dress and what’s not? I mean, unless you want to make it mandatory for French people to wear floppy berets and go about their business dressed up like mimes without the make-up. Hey, I’ve seen the old movies.

It would indeed be perfectly OK to put on an Alpine beret, it would be a French thing to do, correct?

Would putting on a burqa be a French thing to do? Well? Honestly?

And that is the whole point, they do not want to conform to the country they adopted as home. No, the reverse is demanded, that country should change to accomodate them.

[Dangerosa]

@Linty_Fresh

Sorry, maybe I’m just not fully awake yet, but how is this not racism?

Because white folks can (and sometimes do) wear burqas and other forms of restrictive dress. It might be (and quite possibly is) religious persecution, but I’m not convinced its racism.

Hmmmmm . . . Here’s a thought. Maybe strict Islamic countries are different, because they’re . . . not democracies? Maybe the constitutions of strict Islamic countries–if they exist at all in every one–are written according to . . . ohhhh, I’m just spitballing here, but . . . Islam? Just a thought.

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything either. We live in a democracy here in the U.S., but I can’t walk around shirtless - even though I can topless sunbathe in the park in parts of Europe. Not that I’m big on topless sunbathing (I’d think the sunburn would suck). Our democracy has pretty much upheld public obscenity laws. We enforce cultural norms via law in a democracy - possibly not to the extent that they do in a fascist system, but it isn’t like a democracy enables you to do anything you want.

[Dead_Badger]

@Latro

And that is the whole point, they do not want to conform to the country they adopted as home. No, the reverse is demanded, that country should change to accomodate them.

Poppycock. Are you being forced to wear a burqa? Are any of your freedoms being infringed by the mere existence of people who dress differently? Of course not. They’re taking advantage of the exact same freedoms we have availed ourselves of; they’re just doing it in a way that displeases you. That your response to this is to remove that freedom and enshrine your own choice is quite staggeringly short-sighted.

What I am saying is that if I have to respect other peoples cultures when I visit and certainly when I decide to go and live there, why can’t I ask the same from those who come to my country?

Because it’s bad that those countries have all these religious strictures enshrined in law. We think freedom is good, remember? I mean, if you really want to argue that we should get one over on those horrible oppressive countries by becoming exactly as oppressive as them, then fine, but can’t you see even a teensy weensy flaw in that argument?

[chela]

@wintertime

I am not familiar with the Islam, so could someone tell me what makes the burqa an expression of religiousness and not primarily a “social” garment?

I think it’s alway been both, though I can’t quote the Koran!

It’s now 10 years after my college cultural anthropolgy class, but I still have a text of “field notes” and was reading it recently.

We are now seeing more women outside the home, in the public streets. But the legacy has been that the muslim woman and the man lived basically separate lives. He is the social and political being who has a public life with all the other men. Their women live in the house, and have the most important task of maintaining the family honor and offering hospitality to the men in her family and their guests

High stakes honor.Honor at any and all costs. Where only blood can clean blood, thus revenge killings and we see how twisted they can get, are the answer to uphold honor.

Now hospitality is also a very strong custom, “a weak man would kill his last camel in order to be hospitable to a stranger” yet woe to the wife if she cannot produce a meal.

Honor is on the shoulders of the woman, it behooves her man to cover her up.

[Latro]

@Dead_Badger

Poppycock. Are you being forced to wear a burqa? Are any of your freedoms being infringed by the mere existence of people who dress differently? Of course not. They’re taking advantage of the exact same freedoms we have availed ourselves of; they’re just doing it in a way that displeases you. That your response to this is to remove that freedom and enshrine your own choice is quite staggeringly short-sighted.

Not quite, people are being pressured to wear them.
Where before muslim girls could let their hair free in europe. Nowadays they are indeed being pressured to wear headscarfs.

Just recently the last school in Belgium that did not forbid the headscarf is now going to do so because girls were leaving because of the pressure put on them by other muslima’s.

Because it’s bad that those countries have all these religious strictures enshrined in law. We think freedom is good, remember?

I don’t care wether it’s religiuos or cultural or backwards or modern.
It is their way. When I am over there I will respect their ways, I will try not to offend them. wherever ‘there’ is .

The burqa is something that conflicts with my countries’ culture of looking people in the face. Not shaking the hand of a woman is something that conflicts with my culture.
When in my Rome do as us Romans do.

I mean, if you really want to argue that we should get one over on those horrible oppressive countries by becoming exactly as oppressive as them, then fine, but can’t you see even a teensy weensy flaw in that argument?

Who is aguing that?

[Dangerosa]

Latro, are you French?

“We” value freedom - but most of “us” here are Americans - and Americans have a different idea of freedom and value individual rights much more than Europeans seem to.

So we have an odd sort of three way cultural relativism going on in this thread.

[Dead_Badger]

@Latro

Not quite, people are being pressured to wear them.

No no no, you were claiming that you were being put upon by these people’s failure to conform. I’ll have no bait and switch here. Linty Fresh has admirably dealt with the ludicrous pretence that banning burqas will emancipate oppressed muslim women, so I’m not going to address that. You were complaining about the country being forced to accommodate something. And here it is:

The burqa is something that conflicts with my countries’ culture of looking people in the face. Not shaking the hand of a woman is something that conflicts with my culture.

What utter tosh. I confess, I’ve heard lamer justifications for making law, but only rarely. In your opinion, then, is it the place of the law to stipulate how free citizens of a country interact? There are many people in the USA for whom the idea of a man hugging a man in greeting is distasteful. Others do the European cheek kissing thing. Which of these should we ban for your pleasure? Are fist-bumps okay with you? How about the high five? Are recluses to be hounded out on to the streets so we can look them in the eye and give them a firm American handshake? Understand, I’m just trying to find out what the guiding principle behind your statements are; at the moment, it seems like you’re randomly tossing out justifications for banning something you Just Don’t Like.

When in my Rome do as us Romans do.

Or else, eh? Ah, freedom.

Who is aguing that?

You, when you argue in favour of enshrining into law the codes of dress and religious expression that you find palatable. If you’re going to make arguments, it would help if you first worked out what they entail.

[Latro]

@Dangerosa

Latro, are you French?

“We” value freedom - but most of “us” here are Americans - and Americans have a different idea of freedom and value individual rights much more than Europeans seem to.

So we have an odd sort of three way cultural relativism going on in this thread.

I’m Dutch actually and I think that you’re right in that Europeans, especially northern ones, do put a higher value on conforming to social conventions.

‘Being tolerant’ is an important social convention f.i.

Funnily enough I do consider myself to be quite tolerant but sometimes there are things that just can’t go together.

Hare krishna’s in the street, no problem. A buddhist temple in my town, no problem. A mosque in my town, no problem, complete with minarettes, for all I care.

But I dread the day that we will have to accept that from those minarettes the cries of ‘Allah uh Akbar’ will gulf over my green countryside.

[jayjay]

@Latro

But I dread the day that we will have to accept that from those minarettes the cries of ‘Allah uh Akbar’ will gulf over my green countryside.

Do you dread the tolling of church bells, as well?

[Dead_Badger]

@Latro

But I dread the day that we will have to accept that from those minarettes the cries of ‘Allah uh Akbar’ will gulf over my green countryside.

I lived with them in south London for five years without ever being bothered by it. Is it possible you’re just far too worried about what other people are doing? This teary-eyed mourning for a picture-postcard past nauseates me when it’s the BNP here in the UK doing it, and it no less distasteful here. It’s an insupportable pretence that a country is something to be wrapped in cotton wool and curated, rather than lived in. Change happens, and unfamiliarity is not a sufficient reason to start writing laws.

‘Being tolerant’ is an important social convention f.i.

Except when people wear things you don’t think they should wear, or practice a religion that makes a sound you don’t like. Weird kind of tolerance.

[wintertime]

I’ve asked Muslim friends of mine (from Egypt) and they said that anything like the burqa is neither mentioned in the Holy Qur’an nor in the hadith, though modest behaviour in public is one often repeated demand.

However, they live a western life style, so I don’t know, if they are familiar enough with Islamic writings to say anything with certainty; I was astonished to hear that it isn’t even required for a Muslim woman to cover her face, so they consider any demand in that respect an act of oppression.

Anyone here, who can confirm or refute that?

Anyway, that reminded me of the Taliban who forced the wearing of the burqa on all women in Afghanistan when they got into control.

So now I wonder, how much of a political symbol the burqa is among Muslims?

But even if the burqa is a symbol of oppression in some Muslim countries, I still don’t think that it’s a good idea to counter a ban of all other clothing for women with a ban of this particular garment; I don’t want this thing to have a related meaning here.

Our personal rights are one of our strongest assets and we should continue to show our sincerity by accepting the burqa if Muslim women choose to wear it.

However, personal choice doesn’t necessarily trump all other considerations; totally disguising clothing can be rightfully prohibited in any situation that demands easy identification of an individual; personal freedoms are neither limitless in relation to society nor towards other individuals.

And what we can’t tolerate one bit, is the forcing of the burqa or any other clothing on women who live among us.

The line is crossed when someone thinks that any religious or cultural demand trumps the constitutional rights our western societies are based upon.

I think, this is the point that we should emphasize much more than we did in the past.
Aside: imo, the integration of minorities from European countries or other parts of the world has enriched our cultures; if I compare the German society of the 1950s with the present one, I’ll choose the Bunte Republik Deutschland in an instant.