French Revolution: Was Robespierre a tragic figure? A misunderstood figure? A tyrant? Something else?

Charles II was an absolute monarch.

He had his ups and down with Parliament, but in the end he dissolved it – three times – in 1679 because it wouldn’t accept James as his heir. He dissolved it a fourth time after it had sat for only a few days in 1681, and he never recalled it. For the last few years of his reign he ruled without Parliament at all, and he got his own way about James being his heir.

James was also an absolute monarch. He ordered Parliament to be prorogued in November 1685, and it was never convened again during his reign.

Charles II was not an absolute monarch, and this shows a real severe misunderstanding of what it meant for the monarch to dissolve Parliament (something that was a regular power of the monarchy, and is technically the power used even to this day to dissolve Parliament for an election), Parliament being dissolved means no new Parliamentary acts can be passed. It did not mean Charles II wasn’t subject to the law, or that he could do anything that was within Parliamentary prerogative during the time Parliament was not seated. These limitations mean he was certainly not an absolute monarch. An absolute monarch can set tax rates through royal proclamation, as an example–Charles did not have this power. King Louis XIV or the Tsars of Russia on the other hand, absolutely did have this power. Earlier in his reign Charles proclaimed the “Declaration of Indulgences”, his first attempt to bring Catholics back to having religious liberty in the country. Parliament informed him it was opposed to it, and that he did not have the right to issue such acts without Parliamentary approval. Charles withdrew the declaration, and then agreed to the “Test Act” which made it so anyone who was not part of the Church of England or the Church of Scotland in Scotland, was ineligible for public office and any number of other civil liberties. Charles signed this despite not wanting to–in fact his brother was still trying to engineer a packed Parliament to overturn it during his reign.

Charles was granted a number of customs and excise duties on his restoration, and at many times this was not sufficient to run government fully, and he had to do without, largely because of his conflicts with Parliament he wasn’t able to secure additional sources of funding without being subject to negotiations he wasn’t prepared to enter into.

I can only assume your misunderstanding is a simplistic fact I see repeated in many quick google search results on the topic, that Charles “ruled without Parliament” after suspending it and became an “absolute monarch.” This does not describe the legal or constitutional status of the British monarchy in the 17th or even 16th centuries–even Henry VIII would not have met the definition of an absolute monarch, although he came very close, probably the closest any English King was able to come to achieving that. Charles certainly engaged in some of the same activities Henry did, such as packing courts with jurors friendly to his interests and firing judges he disagreed with, but even back to Anglo-Saxon times English Kings had limitations under the law, which had been confirmed many times before and after Charles IIs reign. Ruling without Parliament was not unusual in pre-modern England, but it did not represent anything like absolute monarchy due to various actions the Kings were not allowed to take without calling a new Parliament, and the fact various laws, judges and etc had ordinary independence of the monarch.

James II/VII was also not an absolute monarch, and again was limited in what he could do without Parliament. Proroguing Parliament does not turn the English monarch of this period into an absolute ruler. In fact the very end of James’s short reign illustrates why he could not be considered an absolute monarch, realizing that his Catholicism and various desires he had to undermine anti-Catholic laws was undermining his authority, he sought a definitive solution to the problem by calling new Parliamentary elections and finding a way to pack the new Parliament with his own men. The very act of him attempting to create a permanent “Royalist electoral machine” to erode the power of Parliament was a major reason the Protestant nobility invited William to invade, and the significant lack of support he realized he had in the country made him decline to fight William by force of arms.

Now, if James had succeeded in packing Parliament, he likely would have become a true absolute monarch along French / Russian / Austrian lines, as such control would have likely seen him pass many laws to permanently end the ability to challenge the monarchy. Instead, William’s first Parliament saw a number of laws passed which had the effect of permanently, and formally limiting the monarchy.

If you contrast this to Louis XIV who ruled coterminous to the events described, there were virtually no legal limitations to his activities or law making. While there were many provincial interests and prerogatives that even Louis didn’t entirely dismiss out of hand (every King with sense always fears things that can lead to unrest), he could for example and did issue direct capitation taxes without assent from any legal body (he did so to fund wars in the last 10 years of his reign, while he avoided such direct taxes previously.) The French Parlements (each territory had one) had traditional prerogatives that allowed them to in some instances reject laws passed down by the monarch, and under Louis this power was formally abolished, with the monarch attaining the ability to force the Parlements to accede and implement his laws over their objections–if Charles II or James had had such power their reigns would have been far simpler.

Lucky they did, too. Created a class of smart, ambitious men barred from government and the professions who channeled their energies into building factories and banks and colonies. One reason were not typing these posts in French.

8 posts were split to a new topic: Working on Title 17th Century politics for now. Off-Topic hijack moved

A post was merged into an existing topic: RangerLoops troll posts

Perhaps we might focus on Robespierre in this thread…?

This thread had me looking up the meaning of Carlyle’s description of Robespierre, “the sea-green Incorruptible”, and came across this book review. Here’s its explanation of the phrase, which partly answers the thread question:

"Carlyle’s famous description . . . “the sea-green Incorruptible”, highlights the dilemma. On the face of it, Carlyle is doing no more than to manufacture a soubriquet out of the colour of Robespierre’s favourite coat; “The Incorruptible” was the title given to him by his contemporaries. Most politicians would be proud to bear the name “Incorruptible” (though it would be tempting fate today); but adding the epithet “sea-green” has, as Carlyle intended, a slyly subversive effect: it evokes something from the depths, something slimy, something reptilian. And since Robespierre presided over the most bloodthirsty period of the French Revolution, the idea of him as The Incorruptible comes to suggest, not so much the decency of a politician who could not be bribed or deflected from his goals by self-interest, but other, quite different extremes: implacable, immovable, inflexible, inhuman… "

The article’s final summary is “Hero or villain? Neither, in fact, but a fascinating product of remarkable times.”

Modding: I moved the hijack off to its own thread. @Martin_Hyde & @GreenWyvern keep on topic in this thread.

Oh, I have no problem calling him a villain. To understand why someone became a villain, and to place him in the proper context of his times, does not make him any less a villain.

I agree the end result was monstrous.

Apparently, the French ultimately thought the same way. When Robespierre went under the Guillotine they laid him face-up so he could see what was coming. Apparently something they only did for the worst of the worst.

I am not trying to absolve him. Just wondering how he got from a seemingly decent guy to horror show.

Because power corrupts and power in the hand of someone who used the language of virtue to manipulate the mob is no exception. History ought to be a guide to this sort of thing.

Just happened to get this book a few days ago, released in August. It is mostly about the last 24 hours but gives plenty of background. Read aboutt 50 pages so far, very interesting

Here is a picture of Robespierre accomplice Georges Couthon’s hand-crank wheelchair.

I like to look at this device as, like the guillotine to which its owner was trundled; or a TED talk about how this or that new device/app/feature will free humanity: a symbol of how applied technology is seen by devotees of reason and progress as virtue in and of itself without bothering with the humanitarian aspects or lack thereof.

(typed the Luddite onto his marvelous hand-held computer).

ETA, funny how some dictators like Robespierre and Gadaffi (killed ten years ago today) convince themselves that they only do their atrocities “for You, the People.” Then, when the People shed that illusion but keep its ferocity, it’s bayonet meets rectum in short order.

Dictators like Stalin and Mao don’t fall for their own PR, and are careful to built a reliable barrier of protection; proof being that it doesn’t outlive their own natural deaths (example: Beria had no barrier).