Sabbath:
It had very little to do with “loudness” and very much to do with the US ensuring future influence over the UNSC. The US explicitely pursuid this war. If they let “friends” vote them down in the UNSC on prestige issues like this it loses “credibility” as the “world leader” / top dog. So there has to be a price for disagreeing, and that price will be well known in advance next time.
That’s my shot at political analysis of current world affairs 
Now i’m interested in your take, matey.
Ah weekend, good weather and a trip to the country. Back in a couple of days!
He said no such thing, and what he actually did say has been greatly exaggerated by tearing it out of context.
What he said is that he thought they had missed some good opportunities to keep their mouth shut. They had acted to negligently, joining the EU would require some attention for the concerns of others. It would be a sign of bad upbringing to bail on the first occasion, the first difficult issue, and, without consulting others, state one’s own position. He pointed out that such action would be beneficial only if Romania and Bulgaria intended NOT to join the EU, since several EU countries would still have to hold referendums on the expansion, and such action was fit to create resentment, which could trigger a rejection in a EU member referendum, and one rejection would be enough to stop the process.
He never said that France would stop the process. He said that the go-it-alone attitude was fit to cause a backlash in EU countries which could jeopardize the expansion process. He alluded to the fact that the EU makes decisions on a consensus basis, and that the candidates joining in the bad habits of a handful of EU members (a minority, notably) to backpedal from an agreement already made would raise doubts on whether the new candidates are fit to join.
It was one single comment, and it was made in light of the fact that the EU, on request not the least by Germany and France, had just gone out of its way to grant Poland better conditions on joining the EU. As such, the support for the ‘letter of the eight’ was seen as backstabbing. Not the least, already now but even more so as a EU member, Poland will be receiving plenty of money from France and Germany, two of the most important net payers into EU funds. As such, Chirac acted out of anger at what he considered thankless behavior and backstabbing. It had nothing to do with the general position towards the war. As numerous EU diplomats stated in interviews, a lot of people in the EU were THINKING the very same things, but not voicing them.
From ElvisL1ves
“That second part is exactly what we’ve been telling you. Now, why would you have a problem understanding that America is not always right and France is not always wrong? That’s what else we’ve been telling you, kid.”
From XTISME
“I’m not saying everything American does is right or good…snort…far from it. All I was TRYING to say is that, just because America might be in the WRONG, doesn’t mean that those European powers like France are in the RIGHT…or that THEIR motives are pure, or their own coat tails clean.”
There must be some kind of disconnect here. Either:
A) You are an idiot
B) You are deliberately trying to bait me
C) My English is not so good and I’m not saying what I THINK I’m saying
D) I should just stay out of these political threads because people are so polarized that there IS no debate.
I’m thinking D with a touch of B. Well, I won’t be baited by you, KID, so I think I’ll just retire from the thread. As always, when the talk turns to politics on this board, all I hear is the yelling. It boggles my mind how seeming rational people (based on other threads I’ve read by them) can become so closeminded and strident when it comes to politics…
-XT
Oliver, studying every detail you might be right in terms of what had been said and what it means/should mean. But I guess Chiracs response was an emotional one (as you already said):
I guess that was a heavy blow and I can understand it. Of course Poland has the right to do whatever it wants and the EU does not “buy” Poland with the money it gives, but still people were and are not happy about that.
As Randy Spears put it:
I guess there is also a recompensation for agreeing, and Poland gets this recompensation now in Iraq.
Apparently the polish government is ridiculed for its behaviour by its people. Anybody who can confirm this?
I actually don’t see the conflict about being over the UNSC at all, more over the future, power, and command of the EU. Brussels, France, and Germany as the center of the Euro-Nation, versus the countries who aren’t quite so sure about that being such a good idea. Notice the brit thing about the euro recently as fallout? This could, in the long term, be a bit of a shattering blow.
Frankly, I’m against the EU as far as legal and monetary policy goes, and definately against it as far as a political unit. I’m in favor of it as a NAFTA like object, but…
Face it. These are very real countries with very real cultures here. There is no way you can merge them into one without several dozen loud wars of either the cultural, physical, or economic type.
(I’m not going to get into what I think about the Euro… except that it seems to be a good way for the economic powerhouses to leverage power over the other nations by making them dependent to clauses that the powerhouse nations don’t have)
I’m NOT informed enough about what different countries can do to leverage the Euro around, but a news article I read yesterday and can’t find now suggested Germany can violate some limits other countries can’t.
xtisme, nobody, but nobody, in this thread has said the things you’re complaining about them saying. If you wish to leave it anyway, that’s probably just as well.
flonks, for what it’s worth, the sale of F-16’s to Poland has been in the works for literally years. The formal decision by the Polish government was made in 2002, and informally in about 1999. The event whose timing you’re calling suspicious was the actual signing of the contract.
I think they care as much as we Americans do. Make of that as you will.
Again, I think in this they’re just as culpable as we are.
** Warning!!! ** “Le monde diplomatique” isn’t at all the same paper than " Le Monde". “Le Monde diplomatique” is certainly interesting, but has…let’s say a strong bia. It’s strongly left-leaning, its articles are very opinionated, it’s very anti-globalization, anti “world order”, it studies a lot development issues,etc…It publishes only pieces of opinion (all having essentially the same stance), and enquiries. No general informations, let alone unbiased ones. By the way, it’s a monthly magazine, not a daily paper. It’s IMO interesting because it writes long articles which study with some depth specific issues in various countries you don’t necessarily usually hear about.
But it is definitely not to be mistaken with “Le Monde”.
Ogre, the evidence is that the French care more about the people of Ivory Coast than we do, isn’t it?
I can see the next headline in the US press now:
CHEESE EATING SURRENDER MONKEYS ALLEDGE MEDIA BIAS
Now, I’m not defending knowingly telling untruths. However, has it occured to Levitte that it may purely be the problem of a biased, but free, press, and not the fault of the administration? All the stories quote a vague “US intelligence source”. Shoot, I’m a “US intelligence source”. It is not the administrations fault if I claim that Chirac kidnapped the Lindbergh baby. The English speaking press has shown an anti-french bias for generations. Levitte shouldn’t be suprised that it is still with us.
Yes, The French should issue official denials. But since the White House is also denying the allegations there is no need to attack the administration. I know these were serious claims made by The Washington Post, but I can’t help but chuckle at the melodramatic Levitte’s “An ugly campaign to destroy the image of France” comment. What’s his next letter going to say?
Hey Vive la France! they took a noble stance and stood by their ideals and politcal “integrity” to the bitter end. Now they must face the consequence of their actions. They should just suck it up. grin and bear it because whats happeneing now is not the last.
well, i think we can sum this all up neatly,
“Payback’s a bitch, aint it?”
4 months ago, there were french insinuations that the US were just a warmongering nation. We’re on the flip side now and they cry and whine about newstories from unidentified intelligence sources? Gimme a break.
They knew what they were getting into when they opposed the US, do they really think that the people here will forget past actions so soon? Unlike the french, the US remembers well who did good things for them and who stabs them in the back.
“They knew what they were getting into when they opposed the US, do they really think that the people here will forget past actions so soon? Unlike the french, the US remembers well who did good things for them and who stabs them in the back.”
Sorry, X, but the US as you describe it here sounds more like a 12-year-old schoolyard bully than a democratic country that has prospered under the rule of law and other enlightened principles. “Payback” is a game for kids with more brawn than brains. The Bush administration should be eager to repair the bonds with Europe and the UN–not only because it’s the right thing to do but also because it’s the politically savvy move.
To be honest, I don’t think there is anything that could be done to worsen the “American Public”'s view of France.
They shouldn’t worry. They are pretty much as despised as they’re ever going to be.
I saw freedom fries on the menu at a Chinese restaurant. Life is strange.
Julie
Chirac speeks better English than most Americans so I don’t think I misunderstood him when he was interviewed by US journalists. I did NOT get the impression he had any intentions of siding with the United States.
The closest thing I heard from him (at least I think he said it) was a statement saying the discovery of WMD would be a justification for a war. That was said about 4 days into the war when it became clear how it would end.
My impression, from what I heard directly from Chirac, is that the United States had to have UN approval based on the findings of the weapons inspectors. If you believe that Saddam was playing a shell game, then the inspectors would be witnessing the Cubs winning the Superbowl before they discovered anything. (yes, I meant to say Superbowl).
Magiver, could you give us a better reference than just your impression of what Chirac said? Chances are the comments you are thinking of are probably still available on news sites.
I’m just trying to remember which pundit/comedian said the following (with heavy sarcasm) – “We went into France in World War II to free them from being under the influence of a foreign nation, and now they don’t want to listen to us! What’s their problem???” 
The question is whether this is not a recompensation they would be better off without. Poland is in no shape to tackle the task of administrating a zone, and while the government is surely happy about the prestige coming with it, they were at the same time shocked by the task -as evidenced by the sudden advance by Poland suggesting to use the joint Polish-Danish-German brigade. A suggestion made without talking to either of the other two governments, and a suggestion that, in the way it was made, only helped to further sour relations to Germany, which was not too happy that people were contemplating to send German troops in the midst of a hotspot without ever talking to Germany. To be sure, precisely because of the logistical problems Poland is facing, they are counting the days in Brussels until Poland comes asking NATO for help.
Though they show at least some consistency. German press has it the Pentagon just canceled a major contract for paint with a German company because of the stance Germany took on Iraq. It’s great to see that the Pentagon values democracy so much they expect other governments to violate their constitutions for the sake of friendship with the US.
You mean, like no one in the US remembers they would still be singing ‘God save the Queen’ without the French?