Please note once again that I’m not saying you are wrong to use alternate. I am saying it’s unnecessary.
You only have to google “alternate vs alternative” to see that my argument holds a lot more water than you’re willing to give it.
This is an incredibly dumb distinction, GuanoLad, especially given the title of the thread. I kind of feel like you’re just wanking off now.
I don’t know how you think google supports your position that “alternate” is unnecessary. There are many articles explaining the nuances of the two words. I think this one is a good one:
Since you aren’t interested in having your mind changed on this, I’m going to stop talking about this.
No. We are all used to the term “alternative.” The problem is that you aren’t used to the noun “alternate,” and continue to incorrectly assume it is perfectly synonymous with “alternative.” monstro understands both words, and is explaining how they are used differently.
You seem to forget that you are the one arguing for changing the language. You want to eliminate the usage of “alternate” as a noun, despite its long history. You aren’t just describing your own usage, but arguing what “should be.”
She’s right: an “alternative” in that context would mean someone other than the two of them. The “alternate” specifically means the other person. In that context, someone who has both words in their vocabulary would use different words. Hence why reducing that to only one word would create ambiguity where none previously existed, making your newly proposed rule inferior to the current state.
No. This is not true.
You are using one word to have two meanings.
There is already a word to cover the second meaning.
Your own particular quirky justification is only in your head. You can’t see why because you’ve always done it this way. It feels right to you so why change? Obviously I can’t get you to change, as I stated from the start, but my own reasoning is logical (there’s already a word for that), while yours requires a twist to get there (change in pronunciation, limited specific use case).
I warned you all to not get me started. In a way this is all your fault.
Or maybe, possibly, she used in a similar way as saying “we should not be nearsighted”. Referring to outlook, not eyesight!
I.e. We should see the situation clearly, without distortion.
THAT would be a perfectly appropriate usage of the word.
I stared at that for a long time before my brain got to “narcolepsy.” Can you confirm that is what he meant?
I just served on a jury last Monday and Tuesday, and I can confirm that we had “Alternate jurors,” not “alternatives.” To my ear, “alternate” is an adjective, and “alternative” is a noun; where it gets confusing is that in some fixed expressions, like “alternate juror,” we sometimes shorten it to just “alternate.” So, if you are using “alternate” in you sentence as a subject or an object (in other words, it’s functioning as a noun), ask yourself “Alternate what”? if you have no answer, then the word you want is “alternative.”
FWIW, I have never in my life said “Alternative Rock.” It’s always been “Alternate Rock.” I have seen “Alternative lifestyle,” but I just consider the source.
I work in a preschool, and at nap time, the other teachers are always telling the kids to “lay down.” EXCEPTIONS: me, the teacher who is Israeli, and the teacher who is from Scotland.
There are a LOT of words that people misuse, which drive me figuratively up the wall, but lay/lie does in particular because I hear it so much.
Another is the phrase “Begs the question.” Look up what Cecil has to say about this. The various L&O TV shows are always getting it wrong. Now, I realize that in real life, people do get it wrong, but lawyers shouldn’t get it wrong, and people who get it wrong in front of lawyers should be immediately corrected. I am related to several lawyers, and they correct anything in law, logic, syllogisms, etc., anyone gets wrong.
And “enormity.” I get that people confuse it with “enormous,” but since the word “enormous” is so obvious and at the ready, why not reach for it instead. Is there some drive for novelty that causes people to grab “enormity,” “casualty” instead of “casualness,” and “penultimate” instead of “ultimate”?
Whenever I see “penultimate” used in place of “ultimate” in the sense of “the last word in X”, I can’t tell if they’re being modest or if they think “pen” is an intensifier: I suspect the latter.
So what? In English, nouns are used to modify nouns all the time. Shoe store; lemon juice; store room. This is one of the most productive characteristics of English.
There’s no reason why you can’t just say “alternate,” just as there is no reason you can’t refer to a substitute teacher simply as a “substitute.” We do this ALL THE TIME in English.
You know, it’s not necessary to devise some convoluted logic to explain this. As **Nava **said above, it’s simply a standard collocation. That’s all there is to it. It’s the same reason we say ladies room (and not *lady room), but tomato soup (and not *tomatoes soup). It’s custom.
nm
Are you a US English speaker? “Alternate rock” sounds really odd to my ears. I’ve only ever heard it as “alternative rock” or simply “alternative.” Googling “alternate rock” prompts Google to autocorrect it to “did you mean alternative rock” and show me “alternative rock” cites.
No, it’s pretty clear that the phrase “begs the question” has changed in common usage to mean “raises an obvious question that demands an answer”. It’s not surprising, since that’s a useful concept, and it’s a far more natural interpretation of the phrase.
The earlier origin of “beg” in the phrase as a translation of Aristotle’s concept via the Latin petitio principii into English is quite odd. There’s some discussion of it here:
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2290
So neither common usage nor common sense (the phrase is not fit for purpose) support the efforts of pedants to insist that the phrase must only ever mean petitio principii. If you want to get that concept across without being misunderstood, I think it’s more sensible to say assume the conclusion or (in a more technical context) maybe use the Latin.
IMO it’s because any given person’s idea of How Things Should Be is fixated on how they think things were about the time they finished puberty, and anything different than that is “wrong” and needs to be corrected.
e.g. the Boomers’ fetish for the late 1950s and how this country needs to “go back” to the way things were back then.
“Ladies’ room” is a great example of the kind of expression that leads to a lot of confusion when people think they can translate it word for word, precisely because it’s always a collocation. No, the Catalan “donas” does not mean “ladies” (it means “women”). No, the French “toilette” does not mean “room” (it refers to the kind of activities one does in that specific room). And no, in Spanish it’s not a “cuarto de damas”*, that sounds like you’re quartering a checker’s board…
- Some dialects use “cuarto de las damas”, but it hasn’t reached the dictionary yet.
Since this thread is about the misuse of words, I’ll be pedantic that my use of “pedant” here is incorrect. To call someone a pedant implies that they are, at least in some technical sense, correct. People who insist that “begs the question” must only mean petitio principii are not, therefore, pedants.
Pencil comes from the Latin word for ‘small penis’. So does penicillin. I’m guessing that etymology was omitted from the book.
I approve of Mark Twain’s rules, which (among other things) require that an author shall:
Say what he is proposing to say, not merely come near it.
Use the right word, not its second cousin.
To do these things shows respect for the reader; to fail, the opposite.
No, “pencil” comes from the Latin word for a paintbrush, whicn in turn comes from the latin word for a tail - a paintbrush was called after a tail, presumably, because of the tuft of hairs at the end.
The Latin word for “tail” is penis. It was also used euphemistically for the male genital organ (practically all the words we have for the male genital organ are euphemisms) but “pencil” doesn’t come to us via that euphemism. Nor does “penicillin”; it was named from penicillium, the fungus, which in turn was so named because its structure was thought to suggest a paintbrush.
I often see or hear people use the word flaunt when they mean flout.
Oh, and that reminds me of this: some people can’t keep stench, stanch, and staunch in order. I’ve heard both “stench” and “staunch” used when “stanch” was intended, and then, “stanch” used for “staunch” a number of times. Also, whether they get the verb right or not, people seem to reach for the word “stanch” only when talking about bloodflow, but you can stanch the flow of any liquid.