Are there any languages in which there are fricatives which can function as vowels?
So like, this might be a syllable: ks
-FrL-
Not a real language, but in Tarzan Alive!, Philip Jose Farmer has the “Apes*” that raised Tarzan using a “glottal stop” (not a fricative, I know) as the vowel represented by “a” in “Tarzan”.
Doesn’t answer your question at all, but interesting.
*In Farmer’s fictional bio of Tarzan, he’s raised by the last of a tribe of now-extinct pithecanthropi, or something, who are able to stimulate his brain centers for language, since they have one of their own, unlike gorillas.
English (“Sh…”, said the librarian).
Yeah, I know, not what you’re looking for…
I don’t understand the question. There are several English words, at least in my Californian English, that have fricatives as vowels. Well, technically they’d be syllabic fricatives, but I think that’s as close as you can get in any language (Wikipedia on syllabic consonants). When I say “houses” it comes out “howz-zz.” Two syllables, two vowels. I’ve never been phonetically studied, so I can’t refute the hordes of people who will come in and tell me I’m really saying a schwa or some such, but I really don’t think there’s any vowel, even a reduced one, besides the fricative. Historically that was not the case, whence our spelling system (and I do hear many people prounouncing the word “howss-uz”). The notion that a, e, i, o, and u are the only vowels in English doesn’t match up with the spoken language.
Well, if you take vowels to be solely defined by syllabicity, then I suppose there would be a problem. But I think many take vowels to also require, as Wikipedia puts it, “an open configuration of the vocal tract”, so that there can be syllabic sounds which are not vowels, as has been amply demonstrated. Of course, the notion that a, e, i, o, and u are the only vowels in English doesn’t work at all, because those (in the context of this belief) are simply letters and not sounds; the number of English vowel sounds is significantly greater (though, of course, it would vary from accent to accent).
As for your pronunciation of “houses”, the way you describe it, it sounds maybe like mine, but what would you say differentiates “howz-zz” from simple one-syllable “howzzz…”? I broadly think of my pronunciation as having a “schwi” in the second syllable, though mine may not actually be like yours.
There is another phoneme there. It’s called a glottal stop. Your glottis closes to separate the first z from the second. I would have to hear you say the word to asses whether a vowel sound follows the glottal stop for you, but it does for everyone I’ve ever heard, and tends towards the short i sound or the short e sound, not the schwa, though.
Incidentally, to the OP, Dr. Drake’s Wikipedia link points out that syllabic fricatives occur in Mandarin and standard Liangshan Yi.
I wouldn’t call a glottal stop a vowel; there’s a clear constriction. I don’t think it’s characterized as a fricative either; rather, a plosive (like ‘b’, ‘p’, ‘k’, ‘g’, ‘d’, ‘t’).
What about masks? mas-ks-ks
I wish I could upload audio. You may be right, but it’s not the same… lack of sound? as in “mountain” (mow’n). It’s more like “horror.” Actually, now that I’ve said the three words over and over while praying that nobody walks by, in all cases my tongue moves forward and upward between the two syllables. The difference is that with “horror houses,” there is no break in the sound, while in “mountain,” there is a distinct sound cut-off between them.
You said you don’t understand the question, but then you made several directly relevant remarks, including an exactly appropriate wikipedia article and everything.
Anyway, I had the same impression as the author(s) of that article:
But it seemed possible to me that fricatives could be used as vowels in some language, especially given what I knew about the use of n and l as vowels in English. So I went a-askin’. And due to the informative link you provided, I now know of some candidate languages. Thanks for that!
I think there’s got to be a distinction between a syllable which contains a “normal” vowel phoneme but in which that vowel is often dropped in pronounciation, and on the other hand a syllable which has no “normal” vowel in it as a phoneme. So for example, perhaps I say “houszzz” in normal speech (I actually don’t think I do, but maybe you do, and maybe I do and just don’t know I’m doing it) but ask me to pronounce it carefully and I’ll say “houses” with the “e” sound. (What about in your case?) But I am sure there are plenty of people who, when asked to pronounce “button” carefully, will continue saying, slowly and carefully, “but’n”. I’d be really interested to know of an English word where some fricative is used like that ‘n’ in but’n, such that at least in some dialect people use it as a vowel even when they’re “on their guard” so to speak.
-FrL-
Also, I’m really suprised if anyone puts a glottal stop between the s and the z in “house/z/”. But I’m often suprised.
-FrL-
Two "ks"s? I think most would just analyze this as one syllable, with a consonant cluster at the end.
Thanks. I was initially afraid I’d mistaken you completely.
When I slow down, a true vowel appears, roughly matching the “u” in “put.” But now I’m second-guessing myself and “house-izz” doesn’t sound wrong, either. It’s definitely not an [e], in any case.
I think Frylock was just referring to the orthographic <e> in “houses”. For me, I would agree with your “house-izz” description.
How about Obama’s pronunciation of “Clinton” . . . “CLIN’n”?
That’s the glottal stop again, panache45.
Indistinguishable, you caught the same error I did when I first posted. See my edited post.
You’re exactly right that there’s no way to be sure without actually hearing it. For me, houses definitely has a glottal stop*, but then for me there’s also no question about there being a vowel following it, either. It’s usually a short e sound on me. (My linguistics professor in college was constantly in a battle trying to figure out if he pronounced exit as eksit or as egzit, because he couldn’t ever catch himself saying it without thinking about it.)
- I sometimes have to put my fingertips on my throat to be able to tell, but not in this case.
Seriously, I’ve got to hear this.
You’re saying you say it something like this: “hous’es”? With a little stop between the s and the e?
-FrL-
(I’m sitting here repeating “houses” over and over again in different ways and my wife is starting to think I need a minor exorcism. But I think I might be starting to get it–or anyway, I can get what sounds to me like a plausible pronounciation where the stop comes before the first s rather than after. Kind of like “hou’ses”)
Yeah, I say it without the glottal stop myself. I could put the stop in there, I know what it sounds and feels like, but there ain’t no glottal stop in the way I say “houses.” To me it sounds like “how-ziz”. Do you put a glottal stop in “sis” or “zees”? Why would you in “houses”?