Nope, lying under oath is an impeachable offense, tough.
Thanks for your contibution as well.
Once again we see how any issue with any Republican compels further regurgitation of how Clinton got a blowjob then hemmed and hawed about it before the drooling perversions of the Starr chamber. Props.
Why is it that if one mentions lying under oath, you immediately think of Clinton? I didn’t mention him by name. Is the association really that strong in your mind?
Tee hee! Let’s all ask for impossible-to-obtain cites!
You’re right: since my only information about this is from an account of his memoirs, I can’t prove the contract specified that he wouldn’t use the cats for experimentation.
If he just “promised” that he’d give them a good home, didn’t sign a paper to that effect, then he’s merely a despicable liar, rather than a despicable liar-on-paper.
Daniel
Heck, for that matter, why don’t medical students just go out and rob graves to find bodies to practice on? I mean, the people are dead anyway, and if it furthers their skills, so be it. (Yes, this was done in the past.)
I was never comfortable with the idea of “pig lab” (although I never had to do it, since I’m not a surgeon), but I understand the necessity of the exercise. Getting animals under false pretenses to practice on at home, however, is offensive in the extreme; it perpetuates the now-receding cold and inhuman stereotype of doctors.
It would take a lot to convince me that Harvard Med did not offer Dr. Frist ample opportunity to practice his skills without resorting to these disturbing methods. Maybe med school and residency were different back then, but I know a lot of people training to be surgeons right now, and they would never do such a thing, and I can’t see their skill suffering for it.
Dr. J
Apparently, there is, indeed, more than one way to skin a cat. Some are more entertaining than others.
Does Dr. Frist actually say that he was seeking to further his skills, and that no alternatives were available. Would that hold water, under the circumstances? Most importantly, what was the level of suffering he put these animals to.
If he had no option (which seems frankly unlikely, but I don’t have any first hand knowledge), then I suppose some justification could be inferred. But if a conjecture of noble purpose isn’t supportable, we have only some fairly creepy alternatives.
Heh, I thought the same thing when I first heard about this. I hope there was a big difference between his experiments and say, Jeffery Dahmer’s childhood “experiments” with animals.
To all appearances, Dr. Frist has done a lot more good in the world than the clowns who are intent on slandering him here. Comparing him to Jeffery Dahmer. :rolleyes: Given the lives that he’s saved in his career, do you realize how pathetic that makes you sound?
Read the OP, Brutus. Performinmg vivisection counts as torture.
Chill out DR, I wasn’t seriously suggesting he’s a serial killer. Lighten up, do you realize how pathetic you sound?
You know, I’ve always liked Steve McQueen, and in the film Tom Horn, he made the following observation about a popular prize fighter back in the Wild West days:
“Geronimo is so great that Corbett there would have to stand on his mother’s shoulders just to kiss his ass.”
I don’t know if Dr. Frist is as great as Geronimo, but I know Revtim’s mother by rights ought to be awfully tall.
Uh, ya. Lets ask for ‘impossible to obtain’ cites. But only in the case of ‘impossible to prove assertions’. Fair?
Wow, complete lack of a sense of humor. I pity you, DR.
Sorry. I guess I should just let the allusion posted by presidebt go unanswered. Gotcha. I didn’t even mention the name of your godhead, just retorted in kind.
Oh, and I’m an independent, FYI, but I’ll be damned if I’m gonna support a criminal.
Both Bush and Chaney had convictions for drunk driving. Or don’t you count misdemeanors as criminal acts?
OK, now that some of us have gotten the initial screaming out of our systems let’s revisit the OP.
First of all - yes, it was despicable to say he’d give some kitties a good home when his intention was to practice various surgical techniques on them. Apparently he has said as much, expressed remorse, and otherwise made some atonement for this sin.
Second - did he or didn’t he provide anesthetia? To my mind there is a major difference between experimenting on concious vs. unconcious animals. Did the memoir state one thing or another, or are you jumping to conclusions?
Third - I don’t know if this goes on today, but I’m pretty sure in the not-too-distant past animal shelters WERE a source of experimental lab animals. C. Everett Koop has made some reference to this sort of thing in his training many many years ago, and to using animals to practice new surgical techniques on. In his case, this was done with proper anesthesia, and only after the initial details had been worked out on deceased animals (which might also be obtained from animal shelters, for all I know). Icky, but unfortunately surgery still requires practice on living creatures.
Fourth - it’s really disturbing to think this, but what surgeons and serial killers do really ISN’T that far apart. If Bill Frist had no medical degree and used a saw to open someone’s chest and cut out their heart he’d be in an orange jumpsuit in front of judge with the public demanding his death. But because he’s a heart surgeon he was paid enormous amounts of money and greatly admired for his skill in sawing open peoples’ chests and removing their hearts (he also put in another heart - obtained by sawing open someone else’s chest - and sewed them back up. Details). What matters is not so much the actions here but the intent.
In other words, no matter how humanely done, “dicing up” cats purely for your own amusement is evil. Doing it to learn surgery could be justifiable.
Fifth - a lot of people don’t give a damn about animals. Sorry, folks, it’s true. I think it’s horrible, too, but I’ve met a lot of people in my life who think animals feel no pain, or that their pain doesn’t matter, and have no qualms about causing agonizng deaths. I had a boyfriend once whose mother supplied her sons with gasoline and matches for the express purpose of catching neighborhood cats and setting them on fire. She thought this was perfectly normal and couldn’t understand why it upset people, since she had been taught from an early age all cats were evil and tools of the devil. I’ve known other folks with similar callous attitudes. Maybe earlier in his life Senator Frist was one of these folks and he’s since learned differently. I don’t know. I don’t think anyone on this thread knows, either.
I am a Democrat, a liberal, an animal rights advocate, and a former volunteer docent at a nearby wildlife park. I am also a cat lover.
Doghouse doesn’t sound pathetic to me at all. You, Revtim, were using a common and unreasonable propoganda technique and deserved to be called on it.
I did plenty of stupid things in my twenties which I later regretted. Senator Frist confessed what he had done and acknowledged that it wasn’t right. I doubt that anyone would have known about it if he hadn’t written about it himself.
elucidator said:
No offense to you personally elucidator, but **rumors shouldn’t “speak volumes.” **
Although I disagree with his politics, he is a gentleman and a great surgeon. He comes from a family of physicians who are known for their benevolence and generosity. Among other contributions, he and his family have been particularly generous to animal care and education through the local zoo.
Why not pick on some of the real sleeze-bags in office? They abound!
urghh!
i mean urghh!
oh, and yes, i’m a med student.
i went from “here is a dead mouse, dissect it.”
to
“here is a dead person, dissect them.”
in one easy step.
animal subjects are lab animals raised in sterile conditions, and VERY tough regulations ensure that they are treated humanely.
no sudent here is forced to participate in animal experiments, if there is another alternative… i’ll be doing a pharmacoeconomics project and a paper on drug storage so i don’t have to inject rats with interleukins.
seriously, what did he hope to achieve with vivisecting cats?
he should know enough to realise humans are rather different…
any surgical procedure he wished to practice could be carried out on a donor human cadaver or he could have spent a few more hours observing other surgeons at work.
if it had to be an animal, it should have been in a lab, with proper scientific procedures followed, properly written up, and accountable.
it’s not legal, it’s not ethical, it’s not right, and i sincerely doubt any of his patients benefitted one iota from it.
i hope the courts get him for something, even if it’s for breach of contract (assuming he signed something when he adopted the animals).
sick bastard.
Every time you vote Democratic, Bill Frist kills a kitten.
Ow! Stop throwing things at me!
From consumerfreedom.com
(the actual post has many more hyperlinks in it)
Just some food for thought…
edited by UncleBeer - See below