For the record, I’m not even real fond of Bush/Cheney, either, so try again.
Really?
Zoe Swing and a miss, strike one. There are such rumors. Period. Complete thought.
The person, whomsoever he may be, has indulged in behavior that “speaks volumes”. Seperate thought.
Should these rumors prove to be true, I would not regard such a person as fit to be county clerk.
Really. I voted for him, and I’ve said repeatedly recently that I’m not real happy with what he’s doing.
I just loathe our last President and I’m ashamed that he represented my country for eight years.
You know, I’ve been married long enough that checking the username every time should be as natural as putting the seat down. The above was me, not Robin.
However, the words you used here were
which is why I mentioned Cheney/Bush’s criminal records.
See? Apparently, you ** did ** “support a criminal” (or rather two).
Why perpetuate rumors? Do you remember the source from which you heard this rumor? Since the OP was about Senator Frist and his misuse and destruction of cats, I am wondering why we are talking about rumors regarding what he may or may not have done “under cover of darkness” politically.
I don’t know what the legalities were, but I agree with you that it was not ethical or appropriate. I’m glad that he addressed the subject in his autobiography. As for whether or not it has helped him with heart transplants, neither you nor I know for certain.
Is Frist’s political party related to this? Just wondering what the connection is.
PC
I think his behaviour was reprehensible. Not like this was the only way for him to practice surgery. He couldn’t do electives?
To repeat a question I asked earlier: did he ever actually say he was motivated by a desire to increase his skills, and did he ever offer any explanation as to why other subjects were unavailable. The articles I find say pretty much the same thing, he says he shouldn’t have, and he’s sorry he did, but I don’t see anything about why.
Now if he were to say “I needed them to perfect my skills” I will be rather pressed. Harvard Medical school does not provide adequate training? I also imagined that surgical skill is not the purview of the medical student. Doesn’t one have to graduate medical school before one can “apprentice” to surgery? What set of surgical skills is the average GP expected to master?
As much as I hate to defend any politician, much less a Republican one, I just don’t see this as a big deal. Especially considering the almost total dearth of facts we have. Before I can get even mildly perturbed, I’d want to know a few things. And remember, this happened in the '70s, when animal rights were not nearly as much of a concern as they are today:
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Did the shelters expect him to care for the cats, or did they not care what he did with them, so long as he didn’t bring them back?
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How common was this among surgical students at the time?
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Did his professors know and/or condone his actions?
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Did he use anesthetic and proper medical instruments?
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Was any of this actually illegal?
And even if the answers to these questions are as bad as possible (i.e. They cared, Rare, No, No, and Hell yes!) I’d also like to see how Frist as addressed this issue in his memoirs and what he’s done since then to make up for his “crimes.” Cruelty to animals isn’t very nice, but it’s not exactly an unforgivable sin. If he’s made good-faith efforts to redress his past actions, I don’t see any reason to hold them against him today.
Doghouse, you’re being an ass, and you’ve got the honor of being the first person on the SDMB I’ve said that to.
I work at a shelter, so this issue hits very close to home for me. That’s why I get upset about it.
Emotions aside, what he did was despicable. When someone cares about an animal (do you need a cite to show that folks who work for peanuts at animal shelters care about animals?), lying to them in order to obtain custody of the animals and then killing them is despicable. It is a calculated lie intended to subvert an organization’s private property rights, and an individual’s emotional attachment to an animal. It is despicable.
(And the fact that he lied about it goes a long way toward demonstrating the need for a lie. If the shelter was willing to give animals up for scientific research, why would he have told them that he was going to give them a good home?)
Whether or not you advocate animal research – whether or not you’ve got a daughter suffering from cystic fibrosis – whether or not you agree with PETA is immaterial. What he did was despicable.
He did apologize for it, and I respect that. But for the sweet sweet love of Jesus and Mary, why are some of you defending something that he himself admits was wrong?
Daniel
Why are you singling me out? I just echoed sentiments expressed by others, including our resident MD.
This is true. One generally does not learn to perform surgery in medical school–that is done in a surgery residency. The medical student learns a lot about surgery, and watches and assists on a lot of cases, but does not actually perform surgery. (This may have been different in Frist’s day, but I doubt it.)
There are a few things the med student has to master, such as suturing, but this is easily practiced on a pig’s foot or even an orange, and certainly does not require a live cat.
If any of my classmates had done something like this–even those who were going to be surgeons, and had a passion for it–I would have considered it very disturbed indeed.
Dr. J
Does anyone else see the title of this thread and wonder “Gee, who was Sceond to adopt cats for medical experiments?”
Some are defending him because they actually do respect his apology.
Some are defending him because they know he travels around the world on his own dime, and without the media, to treat those that have no access to medicine.
Some are defending him because they believe his whole life should be taken into account before he is judged.
Some are defending him because they see it as a partisan attack.
And in regards to the OP, if this is the worst he’s done, and he was man enough to admit it and apologize, he’d make a damn fine president.
I think we really need more information here. As a medical student I operated on a dog, although we were allowed to opt out if we had ethical concerns. This was a dog that was being used for faculty research and was scheduled for death. Regardless, the dog was fully anesthetized during surgery and one student was required to act as anesthetist and monitor the dog for any signs of awakening or pain. Postoperatively we were required to follow the dog and write daily progress notes, again, making sure the dog appeared happy, and healthy, was eating and that the pain control was appropriate.
Now, if Senator Frist was doing the same for the kittens, and if in fact this was common practice at the time then I have fewer ethical concerns about it. However, if he lied to get the kittens just to get more surgical practice with no concern for their welfare or for what lies he told to obtain them then I do believe he has something to apologize for and saying that he is a good doctor now is not enough to excuse his behavior.
question:
It appeared from the first that he’d operate on the kittens in his home. If he did not (and just took the kittens to the school lab) then nevermind.
is it possible for one person to both anesthitize and operate on a kitten? is it possible/likely he’d have the proper equipment and supplies at his home? did he mention having some one else involved?
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