I was thinking about this exact same thing last Tuesday. One lesson to be learned here is that if you’re on a plane that gets hijacked, go down swinging. If your plane gets hijacked you’re dead anyway, so you might as well try to do everything that you can to prevent further loss of life.
You know, given the circumstances, I’d probably do the same thing.
It is, however, uncomfortable for me to listen to you guys talk this way.
I think I’m still in shock.
Nonsense. Torture can yield unbelievably rich information and motivate those bastards to talk like Amway salesmen.
I’d have to say there’s a far greater chance of it.
Actually I used to wonder in the past why it hasn’t been done more often to knife wielding freaks.
I’d love the opportunity to tie them to a chair and have 30 grown men take turns beating the piece of shit to within an inch of his life.
In reply to this, let us remember above all things that we are on the same side.
I am still looking for sources which tell me that what you and RickJay say is true, with specific reference to those people in the employ of Osama bin Laden. Where is the source material for his terrorists being captured and spilling the beans?
I am still waiting for someone to address the issue of whether it is likely that those under torture would know anything of value, given the cell system used by Osama bin Laden.
Furthermore, you should know that the terrorists trained by Osama bin Laden are Islamic fundamentalists in spades, to the extent that they are not true Muslims at all.
Osama bin Laden chooses people who are capable of such manipulation that he convinces them to kill people in a manner alien to the teachings of the Koran. Further to that, they are told that their reward will come in the afterlife, and that death is glorious. Further to that, they are told that the more pain they experience the better their afterlife will be.
Osama bin Laden may be many things, but a fool he is not.
Finally, I merely comment that RickJay’s reference to interrogation has now been transformed into torture by tsunamisurfer.
I remain in favour of passengers on an aircraft taking matters into their own hands. The death of a few terrorists in this way will send a very important message.
Well gee, Bill. If the SOB does what I described above then yes, I think I will become one… probably for the full duration of that flight. Until then, even though I’ll continue to treat everyone with the full civility we as humans deserve, if it turns out that 100% of these terrorists are proven to originate from a country in a certain ethnic region and I get on a plane where 3 to 6 of them are sitting together looking at me with disgust, out of respect for my own life and the desires of my family yes, I JUST MIGHT STEREOTYPE.
I know what your saying and no, I’m by absolutely no stretch of the imagination a racist. I am a realist.
Like I said lieu I am not calling you racist at all. You just used common sense.
Tsunamisurfer,
Where were you on my torture thread? Hmmm? I hope you don’t get flamed like I did.
I cordially invite one and all to flame me to their heart’s delight. The proposition of someone–or everyone–rhetorically attacking me makes me laugh. And when someone on this Board recently threatened to take me to the–gasp!–Pit, my thought was: no, why not just meet me somewhere and, um, try to kick my ass? (Note: I am a tad riled up by the recent attacks; sorry if I don’t sound like a Foggy Bottom diplomat.)
Folks, given the trajectory of terror, within a few years my seemingly intemperate remark re: torture will be seen as prescient. Wait till the abject terror of biological and chemical warfare hits our soil–and it will. Entire cities will perish and our weak-willed philosophers will have some explaining to do.
Nostradamus said:
A number of Bin Ladens associates have been caught over the years. And, yes, once caught they sang like canaries. See this website for more info.
I also saw an item about this on todays news. One of Bin Ladens former colleagues has turned into an informant and is protected by the Federal government, although I can’t recall his name at the moment.
The cell system works in such a way that a member of one cell may know one or two people from another cell, not the names of everyone in that other cell.
But that means they do have some names to give up. Their information may lead you to discover the names of everyone in their own cell (maybe 10 people). But also the names of one or two people in another cell.
So you arrest all the people in the first cell and then you go after that other cell. This other cell may lead you to a third cell and so on.
You follow this trail as far as you are able - who knows you may get lucky and every so often and find a trail that leads to some of the ringleaders.
At least this way there is some chance of catching a few of them. If you kill them, there is NO chance.
Also the information given by a captured terrorist may reveal other things apart from just names. You may get information regarding:
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their mindset, how they think
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planned future operations
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methods which the group uses
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locations where they are based
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the kind of weaponary to which they have access
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where they get this weaponry from
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ways in which you may be able to infiltrate their organisation
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and so on
If, however, you kill the terrorists straight away you have NO CHANCE at all of finding out any information.
Don’t demonise these people - they are just humans. The above link contains information about one guy who was destined to be a suicide bomber but chickened out.
Yes but the passengers dont need to kill them in order to send terrorists the same message - that in future they may face resistance from the passengers and therefore the success of their mission is jeapordised.
Remember a true suicide bomber isnt frightened of death. They are intending to die anyway. What will bother them is the danger of the mission failing.
We will hurt their organisation much more if we catch them alive and make them talk.
Killing them means nothing to the terrorist group - they were going to die anyway. The loss of that particular foot soldier had already been taken into account.
By killing them, all you are doing is silencing them and destroying what may be an invaluable lead.
I don’t know. It buoys me. Tells me that the thoughts that I have had are shared across the world and that I have the almost implicit assuredness that we’re the unthinkable to happen I would have dozens of pissed-off people at my side and I can look that bastard in the face and say (say it with me)
“Hello, my name is Osiris. Prepare to die.”
Evidently, you missed my “Revised Plane Hijacking Protocol” thread over in Great Debates posted on 09-12-2001 07:09 PM.
PS: Congratulations WB, on making a serious effort to clean up your spelling and grammar.
Naw, I think I just sit back & let the pilot pull out his gun & use that & claim the Warsaw Convention law or whatever it is & shoot the hijacker himself. Oh, you didn’t know they have guns? Yep, they often do. Dunno what happened to the guns this time.
All the United planes I have been on this year also have phones on the back of the seats. Well, I can’t hear so I can’t use them maybe the person next to me could make a call about a hijacking for me?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by xanakis *
Don’t demonise these people - they are just humans. The above link contains information about one guy who was destined to be a suicide bomber but chickened out.
I agree with most of your post, but they are demons.
Agreed, but while they’re still on the plane and before their attorney utters his first word in court, I would suggest beating the living shit out of them and making them pray to Allah, to Mohammed, to Satan, Jesus and Mother Mary that they were never born. By that, I am talking about a beating so gruesome that they are actually praying for death–but then holding back just enough so they don’t actually die. These bastards may not fear a quick, painless death, but a drawn-out mauling? Well, I say we do it and then administer a questionnaire afterward.
What are the pacifists on this Board going to do when horrific biological/chemical warfare is unleashed on America and people by the millions are dead or permanently crippled? Sing “Give Peace a Chance?”
Osama bin Laden is empowered by our pacifism and emboldened by timid half-measures. He and everything he loves must be crushed.
The right thing to do is diarm them, then “layeth the smacketh down” and pin the guys. Then strip them of all of their clothing and hog-tie them. Have him stay that way for the rest of the fight. Don’t beat them up; they are used to flagellation, doing it on themselves. Subject the guys to some verbal and doable niceities. Act, well, capitalist. Before you land, call the airport for the emergency chute. After you land, say some snide remark and roll them down the chute, buck naked and tied, to the cops.
A terrorist’s real fear is of people not being scared of him at all, making him small.
And get the female passengers and cabin crew stand around and make fun of the hijackers’ penises. You know, the thumb and forefinger sign of “tiny”. Say things like, “Ooh! It’s just a piccolo!” or “Hey, does anyone have a magnifying glass? Thanks. Nope, still too small to see.” or “You can fuck with that thing?” We’ve all heard how people from places that have a lot of terrorists living in them can treat their women poorly. Payback is a bitch.
Wouldn’t they get friction burns?
Although I would not be particularly annoyed if a hijacker got dead. Or if his femurs were “accidentally” broken. Or if he fell on a pen, twice, and his eyes were poked out. But I agree that the intelligence that could be had from him is worth more than a corpse.
spellcheck!!!
That’s disarm.
Don’t get me wrong - I’m all in favour of giving Bin Laden (or whoever it was) a really good kicking every single day he spends in prison for the rest of his miserable life.
I just don’t think we should kill them, they could be useful.
I had the pleasure of being on a flight to San Diego whereupon the flight attendant “cut off” a guy who was obviously drunk. He took umbrage at that and complained, loudly, that he was going to “see the captain.” One of the flight officers (I don’t know if it was the captain, first officer or what) came back and told him, politely, to pipe down. He did for a few minutes, then he got up and started heading for the cockpit. Another gentleman and I got in front of him and explained that he would not be allowed anywhere near the door.
The police were waiting for him when we landed.
I believe any future hijackers would need more than knives or box cutters to take over an aircraft.
THERES NO IF’S AND’S OR BUT’S EVERYONE MUST BE AWARE THAT THE FLIGHT IN PENN. THEY DID FIGHT FOR THEIR LIVES, LOOK AT WHERE IT WENT DOWN. I DOUBT IF THE OTHER PLANES KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON UNTILL IT WAS TOO LATE TO DO ANYTHING. I WOULD LIKE TO THINK I AS A WOMEN WOULD BE BRAVE ENOUGH TO ALSO TAKE A STAND AND TAKE THEM OUT.I SURE WOULD GIVE IT MY BEST SHOT IF I WERE GOING TO DIE ANYWAY WHAT WOULD I HAVE TO LOSE?
CONSTANCE
i certainly believe you should try and fight them, especially if you KNOW you are gonna get killed anyway!
i found interesting advice in a fatwa i picked up on http://www.fatwa-online.com which goes like this:
Hijacking planes and ships
Question: There are some people who hijack a plane or a ship, and do so to apply pressure upon the country to which this plane or ship is headed. It is possible they threaten to kill the passengers, and in some cases actually kill some of them, until their demands are met. So what is the ruling about such actions, especially since such actions terrify the passengers?
Response: It is upon (every) country to provide sufficient security to prevent the likes of these rebels from taking over (planes or ships). It is upon the (respective) country to provide every airline with security (whilst on their land) which is sufficient to resist any hijack attempts by the aggressors; just as they should also co-ordinate a full (passenger) inspection prior to (their) boarding. Thus, they should not permit anyone to proceed (to board) until after they have ascertained that no-one is in possession of weapons even if it be (a piece of) metal (bar or the like). In addition to this, some gangs force the aircraft to divert to another destination, SO IF THERE ARE (AMONGST THE CREW OR PASSENGERS) ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT PHYSICAL TRAINING TO OVERPOWER THEM, THEN THE REBELS’ PLANS WILL BE DESTROYED.
So there is no doubt that hijacking is a mistake, ignorance and falsehood. Further, it is a transgression beyond the limits causing terror to the passengers, and threatening them with that which they have no power to carry out, and Allaah knows best.
Shaykh Ibn Jibreen
Kayfa Nu’aalij Waaqi’unaa al-Aleem - Page 113