FSU bans all fraternities/sororities, effective today

I’m another U of T grad from the same generation as Spoons, and we have had somewhat similar career trajectories. I agree with him that frats were residential social clubs, and were no big deal.

I joined a frat and lived in it for periods during my first two degrees. I also lived in my parent’s home, in a dorm, and off campus on my own, with quality of housing ranging from a tent to a gutted house to the standard cinder-block two-or-three-to-a-room dormitory complete with vomiting students, to decent apartments.

For me, frat life was terrific.

From my fraternity’s Mission and Values statement:

We fraternity brothers shared – we lived – these values. The single greatest difference between life in the frat when compared with life in the dorm was that in the frat we collectively worked together with our common values in mind. It provided the opportunity for us to spread our wings. The dorm had lots of nice people, but little sense of community, and it also had some problem students who would come in loudly at night, puke in the halls, and mark their territory by failing to flush after defecating. I don’t even remember the names of my first-term dorm room mates. They were nice enough chaps, but they dropped out at Christmas due to too much partying. The frat brothers of my cohort? We have deep abiding friendships that have grown over decades, sharing with each other through the ups and downs of life, and always being there for each other. I’m a very lucky person to have such good life-long friends.

As far the problems that fraternities in the USA often have, it comes down to lack of guidance and oversight. The national office of our fraternity, our chapter’s alumni, and we the active student members, held no truck for uncontrolled bacchanalia or for hazing or for drugs, and we discussed these things each fall when planning our activities. The guidance and oversight led to good people joining, so it was a self-perpetuating social environment that has continued for generations (184 years nationally).

There is a tendency for some groups of young men who are left too much to their own devices to sometimes act inappropriately – for example, by trying to out-do each other by drinking too much, or by taking excessive risks, or by hazing. Have a look at the songs of British military in the 19th century and then look at today’s rugby party songs – plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose. Boys will be boys, pushing boundaries, often grossly inappropriately.

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:
“There was a little girl
Who had a little curl
Right in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good,
She was very good indeed,
But when she was bad
She was horrid.”

The problem, of course, is that it bad behaviour should not be excused because “boys will be boys.” The bad behaviour of some individual and groups of young men since time immemorial has ranged from disturbing the peace and public drunkenness to hazing (emotional and physical abuse), to taking excessive physical risks, to getting into drugs, to brawling, to sexual assaults up to and including rape (sleeping beauty campus rape is a big problem, and very often it starts with beer bashes). If a fraternity is so lacking in guidance and oversight that it falls into these types of behaviours, or if the student members tolerate these bad behaviours themselves, then yes, without equivocation, the fraternity chapter needs to be suspended until it cleans up its act, failing which it should be disbanded by that fraternity’s chapter itself, by it national office, or if it is under the aegis of a university, by the university’s administration. Fraternities can only look to themselves when it comes to deciding how they behave, and they only have themselves to blame if the fall short. It is no loss (and indeed is of some benefit) to a university’s community if a bad club closes.

A leg-up? It’s a lot more than a leg up. Spoons mentioned “the movers and shakers on Bay Street.” That was the reality in my frat. When you were working on frat projects or just hanging out with the same people who were repeatedly on the front page of the Globe’s business section, when you’re staying over at the homes of name partners of the two top corporate/commercial law firms in the nation, or when you won the watch off of a future prime-minister in a game of craps, you’d be sharing experiences and building relationships with movers and shakers. The alumni with whom you developed friendships got a feel for your ability to make good decisions within the limits of your thin knowledge base. They provided very wise career guidance, directing you to outfits that were hiring, and providing references based on personal knowledge coming from someone who had far greater depth and perspective than a junior supervisor would.

Cat Stevens:
“If I could meet 'em I could get 'em,
But as yet I haven’t met 'em.
That’s how I’m in the state I’m in.”

Well, in a good frat, you meet 'em. A connection does not automatically lead to a job, but often it can make a difference at two critical points: first, getting an interview out a raft of competing applications that are mostly indistinguishable from each other (all top grades and extracurriculars, yadda yadda yadda), and second, providing personal insights that help the interviewing committee learn more about you – your ability to make good decisions, your ability to play well in the sandbox, etc. – than other less fortunate applicants on the short list. Employers want the best of the best, and it is often very hard to identify the pick of the litter. A recommendation from a mover and shaker might be the grain of sand that tips the scale in your favour.
As far as careers go, where it really pays of is in the long-run, for the connections introduce you to the extended business community at all levels, which over the years leads to a broader and deeper base of connections. Out of connections comes knowledge, and out of knowledge comes opportunity. Getting top grades, scholarships and community service hero badges gets your application looked at, but then what is the dominant competitive issue that will identify you as the pick of the litter? Sometimes the assurance of a mover and shaker can be what it takes to differentiate you from the pack.

Presumably for State schools. Private schools aren’t bound by the First Amendment.

From here:

Bolding mine. The First Amendment still includes the freedom to peaceably assemble, right? And the freedom of association still falls under that penumbra, correct? I’m not seeing how this is constitutional, frankly.

I went to college but I was never in a fraternity so I don’t think I have any bias for or against them. I do have an admitted bias against infringing basic rights, however.

As you say, hazing and underage and binge drinking are already banned. And yet somebody still died. You think this time a different ban will do the trick?

This smacks of “just doing something” without a single thought given to whether it will actually solve the problem or not. Here’s a hint: It won’t. Young people are frequently assholes to each other and often drink to excess. Hell, some never grow out of it. There’s very little short of extensive genetic engineering that will change that. Until then, let’s do what we can to teach them to behave better and more carefully towards each other, and stop short of revoking the freedom of assembly.

I see no problem with actually enforcing the rules frats are already supposed to be following, however. If you stop the behavior, then the groups will no longer be associated with the behavior, negating any need to ban entire groups just because they are associated with certain dangerous behavior.

And on a practical note, I don’t see why the same students couldn’t start new clubs, minus the Greek letters, and continue the exact same behavior. Banning frats is a feel good measure that accomplishes nothing. The behavior is the problem, and that’s already banned. What are you going to do, doubleplus ban it?

Healy stands for the idea that a state university has to provide organizations with access to meeting rooms and campus fora. It doesn’t mean they have to allow a Greek organization to have on-campus housing.

ETA: They can do that. They just can’t obtain university recognition without abiding by the university’s organizational bylaws.

Not having ever been in a fraternity, I don’t understand much about them. If a university “bans” a fraternity, what does that even mean? Say XYZ Fraternity owns a big house two blocks from campus, and the university bans them, or bans parties at frat houses. I don’t understand how the university has the power to regulate or control use and activities on private property located off-campus.

What kind of association and relationship do fraternities have with universities? Does it really matter if a fraternity is recognized or endorsed or affiliated with a university? I don’t even know enough to know what terminology is appropriate.

On the study, it would seem subject to the same causality v correlation issue of most social studies. Even if you try to correct for it. The same ‘A students end up working for the C students’ result implied might exist just as much without fraternities. Which is what’s being discussed here, what if most U’s banned fraternities, a little different question from ‘should I join a fraternity at X college (which supports them)?’.

I went to such a small school it was the size of a big fraternity house. One’s class was smaller than a typical frat house and most years were close brotherhoods, ours was. So wasn’t in a fraternity, but not the same as choosing not to be in a big school. Same would apply to some degree in less extremely small schools which don’t have them, I guess.

I’m mainly looking at now from older generation perspective. In fact my kids are out of college and none of them were in fraternity/sororities. I think the argument the study makes is plausible, I’m not saying causality/correlation ambiguity makes it false. But there’s lot of ways to skin the cat of getting ahead in the world with and without connections, IME (our school gives great connections if you remain in a certain narrow field, but a lot of people don’t and I didn’t). And on the downside of fraternities, the stuff in a couple of those articles by Caitlin Flanagan in The Atlantic (one was on the Piazza case mentioned above, I find her credible in general) is pretty disturbing. It’s not like schools reacting to these problems are being wholly unreasonable, IMO. Of course subject to the same caveat I gave, that destructive behavior that now happens a fraternities wouldn’t necessarily go away without fraternities.

For the record, I’ve never gotten a proper job through the fraternity network. I did get bartending jobs and things - some which were highly sought after - through the network when I was still in college.

There are three kinds of fraternity (though all or none may exist at a given school). The first is the classic on-campus fraternity; it will own a house on the university campus, or lease one from the university. The second is the off-campus fraternity, which has a house on private property somewhere (whether owned or rented). The third is a “homeless” fraternity, so to speak, which has no premises at all. Sometimes a member’s dorm or apartment will be an unofficial house.

Universities obviously have limited control over the latter two. But they can prohibit a group from participating in events (homecoming, social events, elections, etc.) and enforce such prohibitions by threatening to withdraw recognition, or by directing other Greek organizations not to coordinate events with sanctioned groups.

If you don’t care whether your organization participates in university-sanctioned events, and your building is off campus, you can basically do whatever you want. But the sororities will generally have nothing to do with you at least on an organizational level, which somewhat cramps the members’ social lives.

Greek life seems to be bigger in the south from what I have seen.

I read that at Alabama the girls go all out to get in the sorority of their choice. They go so far as to have their mother come to town for a few weeks to help them out. And if they don’t get picked they are so upset that in many cases they transfer to another school.

Stationing a uniformed cop outside bars where problem drinking occurs would likely put a real dent in the drunken driving problem too.

I’m guessing that “the culture” (not to mention logistical problems) make such enforcement efforts impractical.

I went to a Canadian university where “Greek life” either didn’t exist or did a great job being unknown. A good school, too, quite hard to get into, Queen’s University. The exact problems identified with fraternities – drinking and rape and all that – also happened there. Hell, the school is infamous for Homecoming Weekend, which is basically a city-wide drunken riot.
Fraternities do not cause drinking and alcohol poisoning; kids being away from home and out of supervision for the first time does that. Fraternities do not cause rape; young men and rape culture do that. If FSU has no official fraternities, these things will happen in house parties.

As too the pros of “Greek life” I call an equal amount of bullshit. Of course some people make connections and lifelong friendships in fraternities. LOTS of people make connections and lifelong friendships when in some sort of common endeavor. If Biff wasn’t in a fraternity, he’d make friends with his teammates on the basketball team, or the guy he works at the campus bookstore with, or just the guys he shares a house with. I have lifelong friends from that time, too. If you aren’t in a fraternity you don’t just exist in a suspended animation pod, you go do something else.

Where I went to college, all the best socializing centered around the Greek system, but that’s because the Greek system had a de-facto monopoly.

I can see the value that some people have mentioned above… taking the fledgling plebes under the wing and teaching them adult things, forming a social network that persists beyond college… creating social events on a schedule… that stuff is all well and good. But it seems like it almost always devolves into hazing, alcohol abuse, sexual abuse, petty crime, hell, people dying from just falling out of the frat house.

No matter what rules the universities set, it seems like there are always some bad apples determined to spoil the whole thing. It seems a little odd to say “I know this social activity kills a couple of people every year, but it helped Timmy get a job, Joey get laid, and Bob over here learned how to wear cufflinks.” If they can’t make this process a little less fatal and rapey, and it seems they can’t, then ban the fuck out of them.

Obviously, it’s time to commission a study demonstrating whether purportedly increased donations from alumni who went to fraternities compensates for potentially huge damage awards paid out by universities for tolerating bad frat behavior.

There’s a bit of a debate about that.

Again, the unis will be hurting themselves in the long run on this.
For one, around my area of suburban Kansas City, we have an excellent jr. college where many students go 2 years and then transfer to say KU or KState. Why pay three times as much at KU for freshmen and sophomore level classes when you can do them for less at JCCC?

To prove this:
Tuition at JCCC is just $93per credit hour. Tuition at KU is $330.225 per credit hour.

PLUS, many students find the programs at JCCC to be more inline with career goals and many forgo going to a university at all.

BUT, if one wants to join a fraternity, they WILL go to KU as a freshmen and stay for the whole 4 years. Or they are more likely to. While at KU they will get totally immersed into KU culture of sports and activities making them future paying alumni.

FINALLY if a student only goes to say KU for 2 years they will be less likely to be tied to the college so less chance of becoming an alumni.

Bottom line. Long term. Less money for the universities.

Without defending the excessive and often destructive behavior of fraternities and sororities, let me offer up an example of good work done by them: [The Penn State Dance Marathon](Penn State IFC/Panhellenic Dance Marathon), run collectively by the fraternities and sororities at Penn State. Since 1973 they have raised over $147 million for treatment of and research into pediatric cancer. It’s an insane event - 46 straight hours of dancing, with a lot of ancillary fundraising events in the run-up to the big weekend.

I wasn’t in a social frat myself, although I was in a fairly active professional one. It was worthwhile and we raised a lot of money ourselves for scholarships for others.

This touches on the posts above about the value of networking.The frat system is all about socializing.

Somebody once described the difference between a junior college and a full university (including frats):
At junior college, the student sitting next to you in the classroom may have a father who works in a factory.
At university, that student may have a father who owns a factory. And if that student is a member of a fraternity, he is close friends with a lot of others whose fathers who own their companies.

I am very familiar with THON, and yes it raises a tremendous amount of money for cancer research and treatment. But you don’t have to be in a fraternity to participate. My son raised money for THON and worked on planning committees for two years (and worked all 46 hours at the event one year), and he wasn’t in a fraternity. I know of many other non-frat students who did the same. I don’t think THON is going away even if PSU abolishes all fraternities. I give the fraternities credit for starting and maintaining the program, but there is no reason it couldn’t/wouldn’t be done by other students.

Yes, attending a junior college or a community college for the first two years can be a great way to cut costs. But many of these schools have funding issues, and so many students that classes fill up quickly. So I’ve heard that it’s often not possible to take all of the required courses in two years.

I experienced all of the positive things mentioned and none of the negative ones. I would add encouraging volunteer work to the list of positives.

I think it’s a bit of a stretch to take a few widely reported incidents and conclude that those negative outcomes “almost always” occur. There is a gang-like culture in some fraternities, and a rapey culture in others, but they are no more prevalent than in any other exclusively male college organizations.

It’s a problem of labeling. If three guys have a party at their apartment and five people are taken to hospital because of alcohol poisoning, the university may investigate the hosts and discipline them individually (assuming they do anything at all). It’s unlikely to even make the local news unless someone dies.

If 50 guys have a party at their fraternity house and five people are taken to the hospital, it’s a front page story locally and the university is sending letters to parents and alumni promising an investigation and crackdown.

The latter is in fact far less common than the former. Moreover, anecdotally I can tell you that it’s usually better to be blind drunk in an on-campus fraternity house than at a random party. Rather than three people, there are dozens of people with some level of responsibility for what happens at the party, and that means there is likely to be a cool head somewhere in case of emergency.

We used to have three or four guys stay sober at every alcohol-related event to serve as security and handle any problems. In four years as an active brother and about five more as a sometimes-involved alumnus, I can remember exactly one person who got drunk enough to require medical attention. It was a pledge who was drinking for the first time, and he locked himself in a room alone. No peer pressure, he just wanted to get drunk (though there certainly was peer pressure in other contexts).

I had not thought of this, but it seems very plausible as a reason for reluctance to come-down too hard on the Greek system.