OK. That is terribly depressing. What do you see as the outcome?
Snce when does history have outcomes?
OK, but I don’t think your use of “intolerable” in your original post on the subject is objective. It might be intolerable to you, but it doesn’t seem to be for most Israelis. And they’re the ones that matter.
Frequently. WWII and the Cold War had definite outcomes. The Zionist movement had a definite outcome, which is Israel.
The Israelis are “the ones that matter” here neither one bit more nor less than the Palestinians are “the ones that matter”; please bear that in mind. And the Israelis, who have the most power in the situation, should bear it in mind even more, whether the Pals do or not.
Well, your argument began with your post #36 in which you were telling us what you thought the Israelis needed to do. So, yes, they are the ones that matter.
The “Pals” would be wise to bear that in mind, as well.
It’s not the same. Israel is trying to kill Hamas members, which is made more difficult by the fact that Hamas blends in with Palestinian society so well, and because Hamas isn’t careful about their launch sites, knowing full well that their own people will be killed in the Israeli retaliation. That’s hardly wanton killing, although it probably seems that way to the average Palestinian on the ground.
I’m curious, BrainGlutton, what part of my proposed alternative do you find unrealistic -
That the Palestinians cast aside their religious extremism?
That they accept that Israel is here to stay?
Thay they realize that they’re not going to get everything they want?
Which of the above you do believe the Palestinians to be incapable of?
I also wanted to add that while I am anti-Hamas and mostly pro-Israel, I am really beginning to question the amount of military aid we send to Israel anymore.
I’m just not certain it’s in the USA’s strategic interests to do so. Other than sharing intelligence (and even then, Mossad has been caught spying on US numerous times) and development of new weapons technologies, what does Israel do for us, exactly?
And please spare me the “only democracy in the Middle East” argument, because obviously that situation isn’t exactly inspiring Israel’s neighbors to follow suit.
I mean no offense to Alessan and any other Israeli posters we may have, I value their opinions.
At what point can Israel sustain itself militarily? Instead of just giving them money, why not sell them the weapons they need (which I am almost positive we do that, too)?
And I also think that the Israeli lobby in our government (like AIPAC) is way too influential. And I resent the fact that anytime a politician asks questions like I am, accusations of antisemitism get thrown about.
They are capable of none without real inducement, and not the kind provided by bombing; that just stokes their extremism and hatred. You need the carrot here, not the stick. If you let the Pals have either Israeli citizenship or a really independent state, they will continue to preach and think death to Israel while at the same time making the best of working within the new situation – which will require dealing with Jews in a civil and orderly way. What the Pals really want, even more than for the Jews to go away, is to not be so held down and hungry and poor and constantly endangered any more. Give them that – and there’s no way to give it to them without giving them a real share of political power in one form or another – and they’ll gradually mute their antisemitism, like the white-hating, “One Settler, One Bullet!” blacks in South Africa gradually grew quiet after all blacks got the vote.
Look, the Pals are not going away. Killing them all or driving them all into other countries is as obviously inconceivable to you as it is to me. You’ll always have to live with them. You should at least be thinking about ways to avoid that 20 or 30 more years of war and oppression that you so baldly propose as an acceptable alternative. Preferably ways that do not depend on the other side having a sudden and uncharacteristic change of heart. :rolleyes:
“It isn’t virtuous, Mr. President. It’s all there is.”
Sigh. Don’t you guys watch your West Wing?
You know, it’s funny…many of the neighboring Arab nations like to give lip service to championing the plight of the Palestinians within their rhetoric, but what aid and comfort do they give them, other than to pay them a ransom to the family members of a suicide bomber after he blows up some Jews in Tel Aviv?
I never really bought Leo’s argument, actually.
Cite?
Just out of curiosity, what would happen if the Palestinians in the West Bank just declared that they were a sovereign nation at war with no-one and petitioned for U.N. membership?
There would be an uproar I suppose, because Israel’s borders have expanded to include settlements in some of these areas, and Israel wouldn’t be exactly thrilled to be asked to give them up (although I understand they have made some concessions in this area fairly recently).
Aren’t you here assuming as a given that Israel will keep the upper hand in the middle-east for the foreseeable future?
A nuclear-armed Iran will tip that balance. Presumably.
It’s good to see that racism, bigotry and advocacy of genocide and terrorism are still alive and well around here. I wouldn’t want think we were getting too liberal.
If a bad guy takes a shot at you and misses, do you then have the right to kill his children and his neighbors and his neighbors’ children?
Let’s hope.
Wipe out whom, exactly?
-If you meant the Hamas, please explain how you would proceed if you were in charge of Israel.
-If you meant the Palestinians, you’re a wannabe mass-murderer and the average cockroach has more moral sense than you.