Yes, yes you can.
Especially since they had only lived in most of the country for only around 100 years before Apartheid.
Such as?
Let’s wait until we’ve burned through most of their oil. Then fuck 'em.
You seem to be inferring that I deny anti-Muslim racism exists. Of course it does. My use of quotes was to note the misuse of the word to imply that any criticism of Islamic ideology is racist.
How about the ridiculous saga of the SPLC labeling Maajid Nawaz an anti-Muslim extremist? But, of course, the problem with asking for examples is that you’ll just tell me that such examples are “not typical” of the views of most people on the left. And sure, certainly they are not typical of the generally older liberals on this board. If you simply deny that there exists any ideological problem on the modern left, there’s not much I can say in response to that - little point trying to argue with people who are mostly traditional liberals and share my own values.
I suppose the only think I could say in support of my contention that there is an ideological problem on the left is to check out (for example) the Wikipedia article on Critical Race Theory, which is now pretty much mainstream in the academic left. There are fairly obvious conflicts with traditional liberal values, and with the idea of consistently calling out bigotry wherever we see it. Again, the idea that black people cannot be racist is not a fringe viewpoint.
[Moderating]
This sounds way too much like advocating violence against an ethnic group. I suggest backing way the fuck off that kind of rhetoric.
[/Moderating]
I strenuously disagree with this. Cultures are not monolithic. Cultures lack rights. Humans have 'em. When someone is cutting you up with a bonesaw, it doesn’t matter whether they’re a ruling family that’s been around your kingdom for centuries, or foreign invaders. The bonesaw cuts just the same.
The House of Saud is profoundly evil, and if it were true that leftists were ignoring them, that’d be a real problem. But focusing on leftists here is a distraction: leftists have been sounding the alarm about the evil of the Saudi regime since I was in high school back in 1990, and doubtless before.
Hey, you might like this: Fuck the Middle East - Stormtroopers of Death, 1985
[QUOTE=friedo;21464131Please tell me all about the enthusiastic leftist support for nuclear power.[/QUOTE]
I don’t support fission power, but am all for a “Manhattan/Apollo” effort to develop practical fusion.
Why don’t you support fission power?
Yeah, I’d say you can.
A structure supported by powers from outside of the country.
The only obvious parallel I see is white people oppressing black people. That’s a big one, but other than that, they are pretty much entirely different situations.
Skin color paralleles, I can agree. We can look at what was happening there, and see white racists oppressing black people. And maybe there was a bit more emotional connection due to that.
Argentina is odd, but the majority of the population is actually descended from Italians, so it’s not really the same thing. It would be more like the “outrage” of the european oppression of the Native American. We less oppressed them, and more just replaced them.
Still not cool, but there are fewer left to complain?
We don’t import from them(net), we produce more oil than we consume. We will probably run out before they do.
I was not saying that that makes it okay, I was just disagreeing with the OP’s notion that Saudi Arabia and South Africa were pretty much the same.
I do feel that more is accomplished by protesting or bringing attention to a situation when the oppressors are actually citizens of your own country than if the oppressors are oppressing their own people.
(Speaking of which, why are we comparing two countries with the same initials? Makes it hard to abbreviate.)
And that is a good point that I meant to bring up. The left is not ignoring Saudi Arabia. I would venture to say that what improvements have happened there are at least a bit influenced by the disapproval here. I see and hear protests and criticisms of Saudi Arabia. I was too young during apartheid to really get a handle on what protests against that were like. I am taking the OP at his word that there was more activity towards South Africa than there is towards Saudi Arabia, but if that is not the case, then that is just yet another flaw in the OP.
There’s something to that. I think that it makes sense to criticize your own, because your voice has more weight with your own. Your enemies aren’t likely to give a wet fart what mean things you say about them.
But the US relationship with Saudi Arabia means we could swing some real weight with them, if we decided to. It’s a longstanding frustration that we don’t, because of their oil and because of their role as a friendly (if fucking evil) power in the Middle East.
Use ZA for South Africa, if it’s good enough for the International Organization for Standardization, it’s good enough for you.
The apartheid laws were awfully similar to Jim Crow laws, for one thing, and the skin colors were the same like you mention.
I’ve never understood this desire to burn up our oil supplies when we could be burning someone else’s for the same (or nearly the same) cost.
About the only thing we could do would be to stop using oil, and we aren’t about to do that.
Yes, their strategic position and their natural resources have allowed them to get away with far more than we should let them.
How to confront that effectively, I have no idea.
Good to know.
They had some similarities, but Apartheid went even further. Blacks in the south were “discouraged” from voting. In ZA, blacks in the entire country were prohibited from voting.
Yeah, the imperialist in me says that we should be running a trade deficit to absorb the natural resources of the world, then when they all run out, we still have plenty left to use or to sell back at massively inflated prices.
Just think of all the rare earth materials that China sent us in the form of consumer goods over the last few decades that are now sitting in garbage mines.
I’m not much of an imperialist, so I don’t actually agree with that proposition, but if I were an America First! MAGAt, then that would make more sense than using and exporting our nonrenewable resources.
It’s not just Saudi Arabia’s oppression of women (Though it is interesting that some in this thread seem to give them a pass because the women go along with it. Isn’t that a symptom of the patriarchy that people want smashed?), it’s their support of Wahabism, their role in 9/11, the Kashogi mess, an of course the article I linked to about 5 Saudis snuck out of the country facing charges ranging from rape to manslaughter.
Yup. You can print dollars. You can’t print oil.
The definition of the “Modern Left” is a bunch of mentally ill people that managed to go to college somehow and got sucked into a nonsensical cult. I don’t listen to 18 - twenty something year old’s on anything important and that is just cranked up to 11. Let them march in circles or camp out until they drop dead. That is just a mercy suicide.
Let’s get some stuff out of the way:
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Yes, Saudi Arabia is a horribly fucked up country by Western standards but they are a stable one in a region where that is rare. If you want to target them, you might as well target the vast majority of the Middle-East. The whole region has been FUBAR for centuries and there is nothing that can fix it. Foreign countries can behave as they wish and it really nobody else’s business unless they attack one another or violate a treaty.
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They are semi-decent U.S. ally in a region where that is rare. It doesn’t matter what some of their individual citizens did mostly while in other countries. We can’t control the whole population of the U.S. either. The Saudis would probably have executed them themselves if they ever came back.
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The Left needs to stop with this “Oil” bullshit. Did you know that the U.S. has more oil than Saudi Arabia or Russia and most of it is untapped but could supply countless jobs if we needed it to. We already produce massive amounts of oil and natural gas for export and already know exactly where there is a whole lot more where that came from. Of course you didn’t know that because they don’t teach simple facts in non-binary gender understanding classes at William Lee (now Mary Jane University).
- The Left has no logic in general bless their hearts but here is a brief primer. The U.S. didn’t create Israel but they needed a place to go after some unpleasantness during WWII. The vast majority fled to the U.S. or the newly created nation of Israel for historical reasons and their safety. They are surrounded by mortal enemies in Israel and have to be constantly vigilant about protecting themselves. They also happened to prosper for some reason that is probably just pure luck like the Jews are known for and become a stable U.S. ally in an area where no one else has done it in recent times. All it takes is a couple of pictures of Palestinian kids suffering in National Geographic to turn the tide against them even though there are still Auschwitz survivors that live there. If other Middle Eastern countries cared enough, they could just take in the Palestinians and be done with it but they won’t because that is the way most of them roll and Islam is fundamentally a destructive religion even within the subsects within it. They have browner skin though so they still win among the weal minded.
No, not centuries. Decades. I’m not sure what will ‘fix it’, but I think by this point, once can reasonably rule out ‘imperialism’ as a possible solution.
You mean like Operation Iraqi Freedom? Glad you agree the US deserves censure over that one.
Really? How about the shenanigans those 15 Saudis got up to in the US a few years back?
Did you know that petroleum is a fungible commodity traded on a global market, even by American allies and partners not as blessed by nature as the US with large hydrocarbon reserves? Probably. You probably know that.
Where’s #4?
Is this supposed to be a representation of ‘non-Left’ logic on display? I’ll pass, thanks.