Fuck the Neocolonialist. Fuck them hard.

@MrDibble As I think you know, I’ve a great deal of sympathy for South Africa, and really hope things work out.

I get a bit fed up when people post things depicting the Colonies as economic rapists responsible for everything from corruption to AIDS. For a start the British had very few true Colonies in Africa - mostly it was just lightweight administration. Apart from South Africa, Zimbabwe and to some extent Kenya, I can’t think of any places where large numbers of Europeans settled down.

I’ve a feeling that on the SDMB much of this is down to USA citizens having been fed the line that the British Colonists were evil - which is a bit ironic as it was British Colonists who fought off the British and established the USA. It is even more ironic that they were helped by the French Monarchy.

It is very possible that the ‘colonial’ administrators in Africa actually prevented gross exploitation by European and American carpetbaggers.

I’ve also a suspicion that rogue Westerners encouraged corruption and exploitation after the ‘colonial’ administration left. To be honest I got tangentially involved in Ghana with what looked like something that a British administrator would have stamped on.

Practically, it is now impossible to graft on a layer of administration from outside Africa, but if a bunch of Martians turned up, were pretty benign and a lot more advanced than ourselves, then I would not feel that bad about them running the West.

Possibly we should have pulled out, but kept control of training the leaders, but to some extent we did - and that did not prevent mayhem.

Oddly The Sudan is one of the two places I’ve been in Africa, although I know a little about other places.

While I spent little time there, I was pretty impressed by the people I talked to, it was fairly high level and I was just a ‘technical totem’.

The Darfour (South West - I use the French spelling - Chad is next door, and they overlap) mess is not what it looks like - it is some sort of tribal insurgency instigated by ‘tribals’ who want a cut of the oil money from South East Sudan - and North Sudan came to a deal with South East Sudan which even withstood the helicopter crash.

IMO, the Government of Northern Sudan puts on rabidly Muslim attire, but is actually pretty civilized.

I’ll defer to your first-hand experience, but I’ve had other people who’ve also been in The Sudan say considerably less charitable things about the place.

I would just say that they were sane

  • it might be smart to give them the benefit of the doubt

  • they were a bit whacky, but they looked sane to me

Edit: I was dealing with the top notch ones - bazaar wallahs are most likely s/it

As was mentioned, one must distiguish between colonies that were simply resource-extraction schemes (like the Belgian Congo), and places like South Africa, where significant numbers of people from Europe immigrated to and settled. There were also places that were "colonized’ just for the sake of keeping another european power from taking the place-most of french Equatorial Africa was like this-who the hell wanted chad, for instance? or take another “trophy” colony-Somalia: it was seized the the Italians, who probably spend a lot more on it that they ever extracted from it-yet today, the place has been totally destroyed by inter-clan warfare. So, in paces where the colonizers built up a reasonable infrastructure, the post-colonial countries made out. But extractive schemes (Belgian Congo) left the places poorer and violent, and without any stable government.(Hasn’t the Congo been pretty much continuous war since 1962 or so?)

Where’s Lord Greystoke when you need him.

Well, why don’t you provide some cites to back up this assertion? I’m sure you have poverty, infant mortality, GDP, disease vectors, income inequality stats to compare over the past hundred years?

Uh-huh. If you’re so “keen” on the British Empire, then why are you advocating a system which they most definitely did not? They treated the non-whites as second-class citizens.

Of course, Angola is a mess because they lack a colonial power. It has nothing to do with post-colonial interference from the Soviets, the British, the South Africans, and the United States. And of course, the British had absolutely nothing to do with Idi Amin coming to power in Uganda.

The only thing you might be able to prove is that African countries were better off under colonialism then they were under Cold War interference. That hardly proves that colonialism is an ideal state. But who knows? Now that the Soviets have collapsed and everyone is butting out, maybe a few of the African countries will be able to get their acts together.

And I’m fed up with your constant uncited assertions. You know, I don’t blame you personally for colonialism. But I think you’re constant defense of a racist and economically exploitative regime says quite a bit about the type of person you are.

Or it might come from actually reading a history book.

Oh, wonderful. More uncited speculation. How come you never cite any of these wonderful assertions? Maybe you can post a link to your ass where you seem to contantly pull these from.

Yeesh. It wasn’t “rogue” anything. The Soviets and US were engaged in a proxy fight in Africa.

Uh… maybe nobody in Africa wants the Europeans running them? Fuck, you’re an obnoxious asshole.

Yep. Of course, the British had no role in causing the mayhem. Because the British are perfect saints and everything they do is touched by puppies and rainbows.

As far as I know, Liberia was founded as a refuge for former slaves from the USA. The idea was to repatriate the descnednts of the former slaves, to an african country that they could run. From what i gather-the newly-freed slaves set the palce up just like the old South they had left-set up plantations, worked by local people they had enslaved.
I guess the idea wasn’t too successful.

This makes no sense. British colonial policies were different from colony to colony. Your failure to analyze the different policies makes your commentary shallow and meaningless. Furthermore, you might want to consider the stats for South African blacks prior to the end of Apartheid (or even today for that matter), and tell me how wonderful South Africa is.

Eventually, the Soviets would have liberalized their economy and given all of their “republics” equal rights. It’s a pity they collapsed and let the Ukranians walk away. If the Soviets had been able to transition slowly, the Ukranians would still be under their control, and it’d be better for everyone.

Come to think of it, for years, the Soviets protected the Poles from German invasions. It’s a pity the Poles don’t have that protection anymore.

And I shudder to consider the day when the Chinese might withdraw from Tibet. All that wonderful modernization they’ve brought to the place and the elimination of the serf system is certainly worth stamping out Tibetan culture.

This is all meaningless drivel. Most of Africa was exploited by the Europeans. The Europeans pulled out, sometimes in a way to further cause economic damage, and then they, the Soviets, and the US routinely interfered. Is this the sole cause of Africa’s problems? Of course not. But I don’t see why we should believe that the people who played a part in creating the problems should be viewed as the people who would somehow solve them. Bizarre.

Something that irritates me as much as the “Neocolonialism is a great idea!” non-argument is this fucked-up True Scotsman shit about “not a real colony if we didn’t ship all our prisoners and malcontents there”. Bullshit. And Martini says it almost like running a country as a for-profit resource well is morally better than moving there and actually letting the place change you? I’ve more respect for the least of the old-time Boers than any English Sahib in the Raj. At least the Boers could (IMO) rightly claim to be Africans. Hell, most of them probably had at least one Khoi great-great-grandmamma, from what I hear tell.

Martini, the days of Empire are long gone. Find some other corner of the world to play out your Colonialist Recreation Society fantasy of Topee and Puttees and G&T’s. And take FRDE with you, please. Just leave Africa out of it.

I’ll say it out loud - anyone who truly advocates neo-colonialism is a racist fuck, because buried under it all (and not all that deep, either) is the idea that Africans are too primitive to help themselves, are just one step above children, really. Meanwhile, Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Iraq, Auschwitz, Hiroshima, don’t count against the Europeans? Fuck that racist noise. It’s OK if you do mass murder with machines, but do it with a Panga and you’re an animal that needs to be mastered? Racist fucks.

Fuckers.

And for any fucker who points to the “successful” colonies like America, Australia, New Zealand - I say, how successful for the Mohican, the Tasmanian, the Moriori? Even pointing out the success of settler colonies really points out how great they were as people-elimination enterprises.

IMO, the idea was to create an American settler colony in Africa, where the settlers just happened to be the same colour as the natives, and were as welcome back home as the Australian transportees were in Britain. It was only declared free when it was feared the British might annex it, some 25 years after it was founded. Before that, it was a privately-run American colony in Africa.

Of course, some of the Liberian settlers and sponsors no doubt had noble motives. On the other hand, you have to wander if some of the German African colonists weren’t just there to train up for 40 years later. Racist fucks, take a good look at that second picture. That’s what you want back?

Additionally, what irritates me about this argument is that its Colonialism 101 that there were different economic and legal regimes in different colonies. People who make this argument are not only racist, but they’re ignorant fucks who can’t be bothered to do even a cursory study on the subject they have nerve to lecture everyone about.

No, it isn’t. The only genocide currently happening is in one part of one of 45 African countries. There are certainly other highly troubled countries (Zimbabwe, Somalia, et al.), but most African countries are doing basically okay. They’re not hellholes.

And, to the Martini Enfields of this world, ever thought of asking the Africans if they want colonialism restored?

Not very at all…but the colonies weren’t established with their good in mind, but instead, for the good of the settlers. So, from the English, the Maori, and English perspectives, respectfully, they were successful.

Well, he never listens to this African, and it’s not the first time I’ve called him on it.

You’ll forgive me if I don’t think the opinions of successful genociders counts for much in the big picture, yeah?

It counts for a lot…because it’s the successful genociders who are the ones who are around.

Wherever it has occured, colonization has invariably been disasterous for the indigenous population for the simple reason that any large scale colony is inherently in competition with the natives for use of natural resources. Benevolent childrens’ tales of The First Thanksgiving aside (from which the Pilgrams clearly benefitted more than the indians) the way the aboriginal population used the land was at odds with European methods of cultivation, which were designed to support sedentary high density populations.

Colonism could be said to have been “successful” (in the sense of supporting large colonial populations and resulting in a marginally politically stable, self-supporting society and economy) in some places like India, Brazil, Argentina, North America, et cetera essentially based upon how well the colonists were able to either integrate into or displace the aboriginal populations; areas in which the native population maintained a distinct, nonintegrated culture (Latin America, sub-Saharan Central Africa) have largely resulted in social and political instability. It’s interesting to note that with the exception of India and Sri Lanka, viritually all former colonies that have successfully transitioned to industrialized self rule are all in temperate zones.

I don’t have any firm explanations for why post-colonial Africa (save for South Africa) is such a charlie-fox, but here are some off the cuff speculations:[ul]
[li]The poor quality of agricultural land, combined with a lack of education on modern methods of augmenting agricultural qualities, as resulted in a lack of self-sufficiency for European-type crops in sub-Saharan Africa.[/li][li]This, in turn, makes the nations in question dependent upon exploiting a few natural resources, which makes long-term large colonization non-viable; hence, the Europeans made little effort at integration, and when they left (taking balanced trade and infrastructure maintenance with them) it left the resulting societies in a trade gulf, and without leverage to negotiate for fair prices.[/li][li]Native societies became the African analogue to South Pacific cargo cults; enthralled by the spoils of industrialization without the means to produce the goods themselves, nor the knowledge to build or maintain an industrial infrastructure.[/li][li]Traditional stills and social structures were destroyed in the process of faux colonization, leaving the nations of Central Africa in the grip of whomever could promise strong leadership regardless of how specious the claim. When the colonial powers left en masse they took with them the legal and political protections against instability and mob rule, and intermediary tribal affiliations to moderate political impulse, whomever could grab control of the detritus and sell out to whatever Western or Soviet intrest first became “President For Life”.[/li][li]The surreptitious puppeteering of Cold War powers, each vying for control of assets, and more importantly a way of facing off without inflaming a broader open war, exacerbated this. There was always some megalomaniac with a fanatic core of groupies willing to sell influence, and thus the ability to acquire cash and military equipment to attain power. This generally backfired on the “investors”, as the alliegence was strictly a mercenary one. Despite repeated failures at such efforts, the participants never seemed to learn that handing over guns and money to rebel groups failed to guarantee any kind of loyalty or anticipated payback. So it goes.[/li][li]The lack of broad scale education means that both then and now most Africans are ignorant of both their own traditional means and skills and of modern science and industry; as a result, they’re superstitious and easily swayed by utterly absurd claims. This is amplified by the rampant xenophobia and paranoia regarding outsiders in most African cultures, which has been credibly justified by the treatment by colonial powers. [/li][li]Modern Western aid in Africa is, by and large, more about making the European NGOs look good and providing charitable tax breaks than providing basic needs for Africans. The people at the bottom levels of the structure may work tirelessly in an effort to improve aid and support for Africans, but at higher levels it is a bureaucratic structure intent on maintaining its existance and income. For the cost of one of the shiny white air conditioned Land Cruisers which are so prevelent, several villages could be provided with basic education, medical care, and the ability to produce clean fresh water. [/ul]Colonialism was a disaster for Africa, save South Africa, for which it was still bad (under the Apartheid regime), but at least there was a genuine effort at actually colonizing rather than pure resource exploitation (the De Beers diamond cartel aside), and a resulting permanent industrial infrastructure. Suggesting that neocolonialism would solve the problems of Africa is like suggesting that what an abused child needs is some physical discipline. [/li]
What Africa needs–and seems unlikely to get internally or accept externally–is strong noncorrupt leadership, comprehensive basic education and technical literacy, and a way of integrating industrial development into traditional African lifestyles without bluntly enforcing authoritarian changes. No amount of raw cash is going to accomplish this; indeed, throwing money at Africa seems to have only exaggerated the corruption, often to the short-term benefit of Western nations. And occupying a nation to enforce cultural change as a sordid and mostly unsuccessful history; witness Southeast Asia and the general messes left there by various nations which have subsequently and wisely gotten out of the colonization business. And whatever needs to be done with Africa is going to happen on the scale of generations, not years or even a couple of decades.

Stranger