Presente.
I’m not Spanish speaking, but that song’s still in my mp3 player’s hard drive ;).
It does seem there are Roma child-trafficking ringsand for example whilst this going on a (non-Roma) Greek couple had their adoptive child taken into care after it was discovered they had bought it from such a ring. What there doesn’t seem to be is any hard evidence of child abduction (i.e. the children were not taken against the will of the parents), much less of non-Roma children.
As for Roma committing fraud, this is where I feel you’re not recognizing reality. There are Roma gangs that specialize in defrauding benefit systems for example and in sometimes child trafficking is used for this purpose.
Really, do you think that is how things work? Well they don’t work that way. They may not have been deemed suitable to adopt the child even if they had followed the correct procedures.
Cite?
And this is where I feel you’re not recognizing your own racism. There are gangs of all ethnicities that do all sorts of crap. The racism comes in when you see a family who has someone else’s kid and because of their race (or ethnicity if you prefer, let’s not split hairs), you assume they’re engaged in criminal activities.
Really, that’s how they work here. I was one step removed from such a case. And as I said, that was opinion: that’s how things SHOULD work. The girl is going to have a unique relationship with those adults that’s analogous to the parent-child relationship, whatever ZPG may say about its specific title, and you need to have an excellent reason to sunder such a relationship, because it’s fantastically hard on all parties involved to sunder it.
Certainly the Roma are hardly unique in engaging in benefit fraud, though I have to say the scale of the rings are pretty unique. But my point is simply that “Gypsies committing fraud” is hardly something that doesn’t happen and it’s not even that much of rare thing either as only the bigger rings tend to make the news, whereas I feel you would have us believe that even talking about it was akin to blood libel.
Well it’s certainly not how they work here, you just would not leave a child with people whom she has no obvious connection with and especially when there is even a hint of exploitation.
But they were engaged in criminal activities. It wasn’t the criminal activity they were looking for in a drug and weapons raid, but the police didn’t just randomly decide “Roma + unrelated child = criminal”.
You claimed there were “Roma child-trafficking rings.” I asked for a cite; you offered a news story in which a Greek couple bought a child from a Roma mother. That’s not a cite of a child-trafficking ring. That’s something very different. Is that what you were thinking of when you said there were rings?
No, what’s akin to blood libel is talking about Gypsies kidnapping white babies for nefarious purposes. It may happen occasionally, just as Jews kidnapping and killing Gentile babies happened occasionally. But when you talk of either as if it’s a common occurrence, that’s evil and racist.
“No obvious connection”? The birth mother ASKED them to take care of her child! That’s pretty freakin’ obvious!
And what you shouldn’t do is take the child away absent a reason to do so.
Yes, they were. But the police clearly decided “Roma+blonde kid=Gypsy kidnappers.” That’s where the racism comes in. They didn’t take the couple’s other children.
I read in Daily Mail (not a great source, I realize) that the girl’s birth mother, or someone with her name (I don’t know how common her name is in the area, but the timeline fit) had twice been arrested and charged with attempting to sell a child (and skipped bail). IF that’s true, it certainly gives reason to suspect Maria may have been sold to the couple. And along with her apparent creepily-elevated status in their household (having the only bed/bedroom/etc.), the whole thing seems highly suspicious. Along with the drugs and weapons found in the house. Of course, there does seem to be prejudice at work also so I don’t know how accurate all of this information is.
So child trafficking is very different from child trafficking. I may’ve erred by using that as an example of a ring, when it doesn’t specifically mention whether it was a one off or as part of a ring. But yes it happen on an organised scale http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/23/roma-children-alleged-trafficking-manchester
I think you’re being deliberately stupid here.
I understand that the Roma are an extremely diverse group: for example not all like to be called Roma. So there’s not much basis for judging on the basis of melanin, not that there ever is. That said, there are some aspects of some Romani cultures that I am comfortable condemning. Based upon an article from the 1970s that I read (in New York Magazine IIRC, which was made into a major motion picture! King of the Gypsies) some clans that happen to be Romani are pretty scam-tolerant.
More recently, I’ll quote from a Aug 7, 2013 article in The Economist regarding the Roma community in Hungary. It’s a messed up situation, as the Commies used to put a lid on racism by force, ironically allowing such attitudes to be set in amber from the 1950s. The result are a few insular Romani communities, some of whose aspects I don’t have a problem condemning:
Emphasis added. It seems that some Romani communities are anti-education, which pisses me off.
To be sure, Roma kids face other barriers to education. From the same article:
Let me put some numbers on the Roma educational disparity. The Economist: from
Europe’s biggest societal problem: The plight of Europe’s Roma, May 25th 2012:
So 15% of young Roma adults in certain Roma communities have graduated from high school or a vocational program. That’s not good.
And why does this “community” deserve preservation?
Think very carefully before you answer. This human world is full of “communities” which do not deserve preservation, as against the acid-bath of modernity.
No. These were not “Roma”, they were “Roma being investigated for possession of contraband”. If a couple of white trash suspected of running a meth lab had a black “daughter” with false ID, don’t you think the cops would be a bit suspicious?
Because lineage does legitimately matter in these sorts of cases. That should not be controversial: by default a child’s legal guardians are their biological parents.
Obviously I was talking about the “ring” part of your claim. Not that I’d ever accuse you of being deliberately stupid or anything, but that was clearly what I was talking about. Thanks for the cite to an actual example of an accusation of a child-trafficking RING. Any idea how this case turned out?
So, I’d like to ask you: do you have a cite for ACTUAL child-trafficking rings involving the Roma, not simply allegations? Because if you cite unfounded allegations like this one, in which police go off half-cocked to take children from Roma families, you’re really providing me with the cites to support my claim that the police are racist when it comes to the Roma.
Why, because I said that it’s obvious that there’s a connection? Well, no, I’m not being deliberately stupid (emphasis on “deliberately”). Rather, I think it’s obvious to anyone who takes the time to talk with the family before taking their kid away from them, to anyone who looks at the situation without resort to racist stereotypes. The default assumption when you see a kid like this is that there’s been an adoption, and if that turns out not to be the case, the default assumption should be that there’s been an informal arrangement made. If you have reason to suspect kidnapping (which I still don’t think there’s any reason to suspect), but if it’s just a gentle suspicion, then you keep watch on the couple. You don’t separate a child from her caregivers based on this sort of flimsy suspicion.
I’m not saying that all Roma are angels. That’d be absurd. Nor am I saying it’s a cultural ideal to which we should all aspire. That’d also be absurd.
I’m not sure I’d use the word “condemn” to describe my feelings toward these Romani attitudes toward education. They’re not great attitudes, absolutely, but neither of us is really in a place to pass informed judgment, I think. If the schools really are as bad as that article suggests, and if the Romani face constant discrimination at the schools, there may be good reasons for the Romani parents not to emphasize education.
It’s a terrible situation. I don’t know how much of the blame for it ought to be placed on the Romani: given the endemic racism they face, it feels a bit like blaming the victim.
Arranged marriage doesn’t mean forced marriage. It actually very hard, if not near impossible, to force Roma kids to do anything they don’t want to.
Actually, the slightly separated status from the rest of the children makes a lot of sense if the family viewed her as a potential daughter-in-law to one of their sons (or nephews, cousins, etc.). Usually in arranged marriages where girls (or sometimes boys) go to live with their in-laws before young adulthood, the children of the opposite sex will be kept marginally separate if for no other reason than the feeling that otherwise would just be too wierd. Maria may have had the only bed (or the best bed) because it was considered part of her dowry.
I suppose for the same reason the various Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Sikh, Hindu, etc., communities deserve preservation.
Please cite where I have said anything like that. The closest I can think of is reminding posters that in cultures where a woman who is seen publically as someone who strange (not family) men interact with in a way that involves touching body parts extending a hand is a violation equal to rape because the woman will be considered and treated as an immoral woman. If you can’t understand that concept, you seriously cannot understand idea of different cultural standards.
I’ve read what you’ve written three times, and I keep focusing on the main clause in that sentence (I speak grammatically here when I say “main clause”): “extending a hand is a violation equal to rape.” How is that different from “If you offer to shake my hand, you have committed a violation equal in severity to rape”?
As has been noted (and apparently ignored) ZPGZealot is, herself, Romani. She knows about the culture because it is her culture.
None of us here know that, but you’re assuming that the young girl in question is unhappy with her “adopting” family, whereas ZPGZealot is not.
While what you state about abandoning children is true, in my country, and quite likely others, parents offering children for adoption actually do get a say in who adopts the child, and what religion/culture that child will be raised in. It’s not at all unusual these days for parents to actually do the selecting of the adopting parents for legal adoptions. Not everyone chooses to do things that way but it is certainly an option in some places.
Again, there is precedent in my country for exactly that sort of thing, usually with guardianship being transferred to a relative. The authorities prefer such arrangements be formalized, if not an actual adoption then with some sort of legal paper stating the parent(s) are allowing this other individual/family to act as legal guardian for the child. Nor are such arrangements limited to the Roma here, and they’re often done for reasons ranging from “parents can’t currently care for child” to “locating child in better school district for better education” to “parents have to seek work elsewhere, do not want to uproot children”.
Yes, there is a potential for abuse here but most of the time there is nothing nefarious occurring. I’m willing to keep an open mind about this situation as the authorities investigate the matter.