No. There are only 2 places sympathetic to the Taliban-- Afghanistan and Pakistan. All the other countries in that region are actively hostile to them. Even Pakistan is of two minds about them-- the government doesn’t really seem to like them, but doesn’t have the political will to take on the folks in the tribal regions. The Taliban is not going to be able to set up shop in Iran, China, India, or any other country in that region.
I’d spend more time on the really big lies that effect everyone, then this one guy on a crusade for his brother.
It’s like people with relatives who are the victims of serial killers, who “have to know” exactly what happened- does it matter if the killer raped your sister with a mop handle or a fireplace poker? She’s still dead right?
And why does this guy get a special hearing, becasue his brother played football? I’m sure there are 3000 or so other families who want answers as well, but they don’t get a special hearing. Fuck them both, fuck closure, fuck all that, he’s dead, either move on or don’t.
I’d spend more time on the really big lies that effect everyone, then this one guy on a crusade for his brother.
It’s like people with relatives who are the victims of serial killers, who “have to know” exactly what happened- does it matter if the killer raped your sister with a mop handle or a fireplace poker? She’s dead right.
And why does this guy get a special hearing, becasue his brother played football? I’m sure there are 3000 or so other families who want answers as well, but they don’t get a special hearing. Fuck them both.
Could you get any dumber, Wee Bairn? You’re approaching linoleum level.
We’ve had many threads about why Afghanistan is screwed up, but disrupting the camps and stopping the Taliban from supporting them, at least, was a good idea. That’s not what you Pitted. You made a bunch of insulting comments about a guy you obviously don’t know anything about, and you don’t know anything about this case either. I’m glad Kevin Tillman is asking why the government tried to cover up what happened to his brother to push its agenda.
I spoke too soon, you’re shooting for gravel! The government lied about what happened to Pat Tillman because he was a football player (and a ready-made hero). That’s why there’s a hearing - or do you know what the hearing is about?
Afghanistan wasn’t just an “easy place to set up shop” for the Taliban…the Taliban are Afghani nationals who had, and want to have again, a theocratic Afghan state. So invading, and bombing, did get them out of power and changed Afghanistan’s government.
Now, with al-Qaeda, you’re right, Afghanistan was an easy place to set up shop, but that was because the Taliban government of Afghanistan was sympathetic to al-Qaeda and it’s goals. You’re right that with the fall of the Taliban, al-Qaeda is going to, and has, set up shop elsewhere. But that doesn’t mean that the fall of the Taliban didn’t hurt them. It took away an ally for them, and took away a safe place where they could train and organize. The more of those places you take away from al-Qaeda, the weaker it gets, and the harder it is for them to accomplish their goals.
Unfortunately, yes, people’s lives were ruined by the bombing, and innocent people were killed and suffered losses. This is obviously a bad thing, and everyone would agree it’s a bad thing. But unfortunately, it was a neccesary thing to overthrow the Taliban.
And I think it does make a difference that Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire rather than by the enemy, and it matters more that it was covered up. Obviously, he’s dead either way, but being killed by the enemy is out of US control. There isn’t much we can directly do to prevent it. However, a friendly fire death is almost always preventable. It’s not supposed to happen, and when it does happen, it demonstrates a failure, either in training, in discipline, or in planning. As such, friendly fire deaths need to be investigated to determine what went wrong and how to correct the situation so that they’ll be avoided in the future.
That it was covered up is also a big deal. One of the fundamental principles of the US millitary is that of civilian control. The millitary is under the control of the American people, through elected officials. Therefore, it’s important for the American government to have accurate information about millitary (and indeed, other government) actions. While some information needs to be restricted for matters of safety or national security, there isn’t any justification for the military…for the government, to lie about events in order to avoid embarrassment or admitting mistakes. Admitting mistakes is neccesary so that they can be corrected and avoided.
The answer to that question is so obvious that it need not be asked, so why waste the time and energy. It was a lame attempt to foster support for a war with no support. I pitted brother whining about his brothers death, when their misguided jingoism caused it.
Yes invading Afghanistan at that time was necessary and did some good I guess, but this was not the type of thing that needed every able bodied American to take arms- I didn’t see this sort of reaction when the US struck against Somalia or Panama (yes, I know, these are totally different, I am comparing the scale, not the reasoning behind the attack). Bush whipped up everybody that after 9/11 the terrorists would be storming Manhattan in two months, the Tillman’s fell for it. I know a fuck of a lot of flag-huggers, but none of them joined the war on terror.
Just these two.
INCOMING!!!
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee…BAIRN!!
Well, I think there are those who will always distrust the government. On the other side, there are those who blindly accept and believe whatever the government tells them.
Often the people in the middle don’t want to hear what either side has to say.
So…? I don’t know.
So isn’t that something to be commended on their parts, rather than mocked? Rather than just paying lip service to supporting the War on Terror, they actually decided, at personal risk and inconvenience to themselves, to contribute. That says something for their sincerity and patriotism, at least.
Are you talking about Afghanistan now? Support for that war was high from the beginning precisely because the whole thing was obvious. Al Qaeda gets support from Taliban>Taliban’s in Afghanistan>Let’s go to Afghanistan.
I don’t know very much about either guy, beyond Pat’s football career, but they were doing a dangerous job (even by military standards), so I think they accepted the risks that were involved. That doesn’t make it acceptable to lie about what happened.
So what?
Which proves what exactly? You know a lot of people who shoot their mouths off and do nothing about it, but the Tillmans acted on their feelings and joined the military- so fuck them?
He’s not?
Dude, that’s a deep grave to dig up. Are you sure you want to go there? Lying and or astroturfing to support a war effort has a long and vaunted history in American politics from “54-40 or Fight!” through the Missile Gap and the Gulf of Tonkin incident, up to the invasion of Grenada and beyond. The only thing different about the current bunch is how ham-fisted they are about it, like they’re getting their script out of a second-rate Tom Clancy novel.
Stranger
Actually, even many of us who were absolutely dead set against the Iraq war are perfectly fine with us still being in Afghanistan. Not to bomb the crap out of it, but to stabilize it and actually put some effort into rebuilding it, so that Karzai would have actually been able to lead the country instead of just being effectively the mayor of Kabul. If we had 100,000 troops in Afghanistan today, and were spending billions and billions of dollars to rebuild it, including training their military, you’d not hear me bitching about Bush being a warmonger.
Captain Amazing, I repsect your post and agree with most, except for a bit about investigating what happened. Again, never been in the army, but I just don’t see what needs investigating.
Obviously the person who shot him thought he was the enemy, right? Unless its something really odd relating to fucking another soldier’s girlfriend, or what happened to Willem Defoe in Platoon. But my point is that most people who lose someone want answers for some reason I don’t get.
Let’s say he was killed by a confused 20 year old who was scared shitless, saw something move and fired. You want to lock this guy up for an accident, an accident during a war he didn’t probably want to be in?
War is hell, shit happens, yes if some massive fuck up happens, investigate, but sad to say, the death of one guy is not, in the grand scheme of things, a big deal. Why not investigate every time innocent Iraqis are killed?
Again, the reason for the cover-up is obvious and will not bring down the big guys. Look at the Iraq prison scandal. All that shit, and who got punished- lower level soldiers following orders, mostly, and the order givers not so much.
Marley23-
I think the war in Sudan sucks- say I go there to fight alongside whichever side I like, and within ten minutes of getting of the plane some warlord cuts my head off with a machete. Would you call me idiot, or a guy who took action when he saw something he thought he could help with?
The military already investigated Tillman’s death and concluded there was no criminal wrongdoing, just a tragic accident. The public does deserve to know why people in the military were told to lie about it.
It depends. Do I know what I’m talking about, or am I just running my mouth off like you are in this thread?
Is the answer not obvious? Does this question really need to be asked.
Furhtermore, on 9/11/01 you see the President reading My Pet Goat, and then freezing, scared shitless, when he gets the news, waiting for someone to tell him what to do (yes he didn’t want to scare the children, good one). This is the guy you are trusting, if you enlist, will not put you anywhere unnecessary. You are putting your life in Bush’s hands, an idiot and a liar with an agenda, and yet you enlist anyway. Again people realized this then and now.
Ah, using insults instead of answering the question- great tactic. Tell me where I’m wrong again, beside the Tillman family are atheists, I give you that. I just couldn’t conceive of someone loving their country so much and not God.
The other difference is we have the ability to expose the lies now, while the President is in office. We have the ability to get the people who told the lies to answer questions under oath. If we’d been able to expose the lies about the Gulf of Tonkin in 1967, don’t you think it would have been worth doing?
No one wants to blame the person who pulled the trigger. That’s not a scandal; it happens all the time in wars. The people to blame are the ones who told the family, and the country, lies about how it happened. If the official report is not true, it may well be a criminal matter.
I won’t say that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard, but it’s in the bottom 50.