[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Is the answer not obvious? Does this question really need to be asked.
[/quote]
Knowing the answer and proving it in public aren’t the same thing.
I never would have trusted Bush for any of those things, no. But I think calling Tillman an idiot and repeatedly complaining about his brother ‘whining’ is (to understate things for once) extremely insensitive.
[QUOTE=Marley23]
The military already investigated Tillman’s death and concluded there was no criminal wrongdoing, just a tragic accident. The public does deserve to know why people in the military were told to lie about it.
[/QUOTE]
Please rewatch the tape of brother and listen to what he is asking- HE is not OK with the determination on how he was exactly shot, which is a good bit of the OP, even if everyone else is OK with the findings. HE wants specifics, and punishment if necessary for the shooter as well as any who covered it up.
As much as I like to get free kicks in on ‘the Administration’, blame should be placed where blame belongs, and that is with the U.S. Army. I haven’t seen anything that links the lionization of Tillman and Lynch to ‘the Administration’, but I’ve seen and heard accounts linking it directly to the U.S. Army. Now it’s just a matter of time before someone trots out the CinC role of President Bush, as if he would have been apprised of these decisions and approved, but I find that very, very unlikely. Every bad thing a member of our U.S. Armed Forces does, in a war zone or otherwise, does not happen via direct command from the President. I would be interested to know when ‘the Administration’ knew the truth and what it did at that time, but my educated guess is that they were fed the story same as we were at the start.
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
I won’t say that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard, but it’s in the bottom 50.
[/QUOTE]
Well, their both equally stupid, don’t you agree, and usually go hand in hand? Pride in your country? Why? Unless you’re a naturalized citizen.
And I know its standard for some to pop in and insult in a pit thread, but at least explain your one-offs.
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Ah, using insults instead of answering the question- great tactic.
[/QUOTE]
What can I say? You earned it. Next time, try informing yourself and starting a debate if you want a debate.
[QUOTE=Marley23]
What can I say? You earned it. Next time, try informing yourself and starting a debate if you want a debate.
[/QUOTE]
Well, your general line here is that brother should get answers on why a cover-up, and who ordered the code red, I say, it’s obvious, everyone knows the answer, fall guys will suffer, the higher ups will not, so why bother with the charade. Pretty reasonable to me.
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Well, your general line here is that brother should get answers on why a cover-up, and who ordered the code red, I say, it’s obvious, everyone knows the answer, fall guys will suffer, the higher ups will not, so why bother with the charade. Pretty reasonable to me.
[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t the higher-up get nailed in that movie?
[QUOTE=Marley23]
Doesn’t the higher-up get nailed in that movie?
[/QUOTE]
Yes. That’s why its a movie. Ain’t gonna happen here, trust me. Nathan Jessup would also have to be the biggest idiot in the world to be duped by TC in such an obvious fashion.
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
… fall guys will suffer, the higher ups will not, so why bother with the charade
[/QUOTE]
So basically you’re pitting Kevin Tillman for not being cynical enough. He actually believes in truth and accountability! What a sap!
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Captain Amazing, I repsect your post and agree with most, except for a bit about investigating what happened. Again, never been in the army, but I just don’t see what needs investigating.
Obviously the person who shot him thought he was the enemy, right? Unless its something really odd relating to fucking another soldier’s girlfriend, or what happened to Willem Defoe in Platoon. But my point is that most people who lose someone want answers for some reason I don’t get.
Let’s say he was killed by a confused 20 year old who was scared shitless, saw something move and fired. You want to lock this guy up for an accident, an accident during a war he didn’t probably want to be in?
War is hell, shit happens, yes if some massive fuck up happens, investigate, but sad to say, the death of one guy is not, in the grand scheme of things, a big deal. Why not investigate every time innocent Iraqis are killed?
[/QUOTE]
I didn’t say anything about locking anybody up. I said there should be an investigation. We don’t know the circumstances behind his death, but lets assume you’re right, and he was killed by a confused 20 year old who was scared shitless, saw something move, and fired. If that’s what happened, we should at least figure out if that was just an isolated incident brought on by unique factors, of if there was something that could have been done by the millitary to prevent the guy from being scared and firing on a bad target. I’m not talking about punishing the guy for making a mistake or having an accident, providing, of course, that the accident wasn’t brought on by his negligence.
And yes, we should investigate every time innocent Iraqis are killed too.
[QUOTE=Pochacco]
So basically you’re pitting Kevin Tillman for not being cynical enough. He actually believes in truth and accountability! What a sap!
[/QUOTE]
Well, look at the admin you’re dealing with, so yes, he’s a goddamn fucking idiot if he believes he’ll get to the truth and those guilty will be punished. Does he recall the prison scandal? Will another Lynddie England in jail satisy him?
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
I didn’t say anything about locking anybody up. I said there should be an investigation. We don’t know the circumstances behind his death, but lets assume you’re right, and he was killed by a confused 20 year old who was scared shitless, saw something move, and fired. If that’s what happened, we should at least figure out if that was just an isolated incident brought on by unique factors, of if there was something that could have been done by the millitary to prevent the guy from being scared and firing on a bad target. I’m not talking about punishing the guy for making a mistake or having an accident, providing, of course, that the accident wasn’t brought on by his negligence.
And yes, we should investigate every time innocent Iraqis are killed too.
[/QUOTE]
But if my thoery is correct, won’t that exactly happen- doesn’t matter what we “want”, he will be in hot water right? And do we really need a hearing to tell us there are thousands of scared shitless soldiers in Iraq?
Then also if he’s not getting special treatment, we should be getting 3000 or so of the hearings and half a million on the Iraq end?
Just Christpher Reeve falling of a fucking horse, and then he petitions the govt to do more about spinal injury research- if he could walk he wouldn’t give a shit. Self-centered bullshit you wouldn’t give two shits about if it didn’t affect YOU.
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
I just couldn’t conceive of someone loving their country so much and not God.
[/QUOTE]
What in the name of fuck does one have to do with the other?
I think true bravery is Wee Bairn, coming back to this thread over and over again to prove how ill informed he actually is.
[QUOTE=Revtim]
What in the name of fuck does one have to do with the other?
[/QUOTE]
see post 44, first sentence.
[QUOTE=NurseCarmen]
I think true bravery is Wee Bairn, coming back to this thread over and over again to prove how ill informed he actually is.
[/QUOTE]
The funny thing is, if someone had started a nice polite GD thread titled “Is Pat Tillman’s brother a bit wrong for pursuing answers”, there would be several affirimatives. But start a pit thread, sometimes the first two or three posters agree, and it gets going and no one wants to disagree, and instead everyone just piles on, but I’m a big boy.
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
But if my thoery is correct, won’t that exactly happen- doesn’t matter what we “want”, he will be in hot water right? And do we really need a hearing to tell us there are thousands of scared shitless soldiers in Iraq?
Then also if he’s not getting special treatment, we should be getting 3000 or so of the hearings and half a million on the Iraq end?
[/QUOTE]
First, I combined your two posts, there. But, no, I doubt he will be in hot water. I’d be surprised if, if your scenario is correct that it was just an accident where another Marine mistook him for an enemy soldier, anyone would be punished at all.
And, no, on the Iraq end, I don’t think you’d need 3000 hearings and half a million on the Iraq end. First of all, I’m talking about investigations, not hearings. Secondly, I don’t know how you’re claiming that 3000 Americans and half a million Iraqis died from friendly fire or accidental incidents.
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
First, I combined your two posts, there. But, no, I doubt he will be in hot water. I’d be surprised if, if your scenario is correct that it was just an accident where another Marine mistook him for an enemy soldier, anyone would be punished at all.
And, no, on the Iraq end, I don’t think you’d need 3000 hearings and half a million on the Iraq end. First of all, I’m talking about investigations, not hearings. Secondly, I don’t know how you’re claiming that 3000 Americans and half a million Iraqis died from friendly fire or accidental incidents.
[/QUOTE]
The potential is there- so each should be investigated. Let’s say there is 500 of them. Why is this one so special? Becasue the guy played football for a living? A guy who uses his head as a missile is more important than someone else?
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
The funny thing is, if someone had started a nice polite GD thread titled “Is Pat Tillman’s brother a bit wrong for pursuing answers”, there would be several affirimatives.
[/QUOTE]
Why in hell is it ever wrong, even a “bit wrong,” to want to be told the truth?
Assuming you’re correct and there were “several affirmatives,” I would personally open a Pit thread anyway, to lambaste whoever made the assertion.
Are you just chain-jerking here?