Honestly, I don’t think it would of mattered. Johnson was dead set on widening the war for reasons that seem almost completely dogmatic and detached from reality, even as close advisors kept encouraging him to scale back American involvement and consider an exit strategy. (Johnson felt it was “psychologically bad” to discuss reducing American involvement, especially in public, and criticized Kennedy post hoc for doing so.) Johnson was convinced about getting involved in broad scale in Viet Nam and would have found an excuse regardless.
Ditto in an almost exact analogy for Bush and Iraq, and even after it was clear that the ostensible reason for invading Iraq–those Weapons of Much Discussion of which not one credible shred of evidence was ever found–was so much garbage, even after Bush specifically contradicted himself on the issue, he still had a broad base of unquestioning support that is eroding only now out of fatigue for involvement in a conflict without forseeable resolution.
Don’t get me wrong; I’m enjoying the whole circus surrounding the collapse of this house of games. The continuous stream of justifications, rationalizations, manufactured consensus, and utter bullshit has come to a critical mass. It’s a David Mamet script come to life, complete with the archtypical dupe who is far less clever than he believes himself to be. But part of my fascination with this trainwreck is how utterly unprepared and shocked the American public is about it. That the military would cover up a friendly fire casulty of a high profile soldier is hardly new, and that the Administration would make use of the fortuitous capture and subsequent highly publicized rescue of an attractive, blue-eyed blonde young woman as an avatar for the heroism and justice of the American Way is less subtle than a Jerry Bruckheimer film. In the end, people will want to believe in it or not as it suits their own (generally narrow and simplistic) view of the world, regardless of how artificial the setup is.
My point is there are threads, for example “why do you care about VT”, when phrased and handled delicately, usually result in someone admitting that hey they don’t give a fuck, or hey Pat Tillman was an idiot. No chain jerking here.
My point about the truth is, again, knowing this admin, do you expect to get any truth? So why waste your time and everyone else’s? Listen to Alberto Fucking Gonzales if you want to know if you will ever get any truth out of this admin.
Furhtermore, he is using his brothers celebrity to get what other people should get as well, but can’t, which is at least a faux-hearing, so yes that is wrong in my opinion- “I don’t have to wait in line at the DMV, I’m a celebrity”- dude hundreds of people died in friendly fire probably before your brother, get in line, you are not special.
Here’s a digression that is going to pay off big, I can just see it. But Reeve’s work probably IS going to help people in the future, so it might be a very good analogy from your standpoint.
It’s not special. And, as far as I know, they are investigated. In this case, Tillman’s death was investigated. His family is complaining, first, that the investigation wasn’t sufficient, and second, that the military delayed telling them that it was a friendly fire incident.
To what extent that there needs to be further investigation and to what extent this is overreaction on the Tillmans’ part, I can’t say for certain. But even if the Tillmans are overreacting, that’s no reason to defame them. They suffered a great loss, and the military wasn’t straight with them regarding that loss.
Okay. You’re angry because the Tillmans joined the armed forces while we were in Afghanistan. As you are apparently against our involvement in the Middle East in any form you’re pretty much angry about ANYONE who joined up, so this is irrelevant.
You’re angry because Pat Tillman’s brother wants to know what really happened to his brother? Well he already knows, is the thing. So that’s irrelevant.
You’re angry because you feel the only reason Pat Tillman’s brother is getting a hearing is because Pat Tillman was famous. Well, the hearing’s not about what really happened when he died, so this is about HALF irrelevant.
It’s HALF irrelevant because the reason the ARMED FORCES made him out to be a HERO was BECAUSE HE WAS FAMOUS. They misrepresented the death of a famous person in order to flick the nation’s patriotic clit back to full arousal. This was insulting to the American public, and actually PAINFUL to the guy’s, you know, mother and brother.
Jessica Lynch has been involved in these hearings as well. She was and continues to be INCREDIBLY pissed off that the Armed Forces made her out to be some kind of little girl Rambo when she was nothing of the sort. As she said:
Can anyone provide an answer as to why not knowing how he died, originally, has caused them added grief? If you were awarding punitive damages for this, what would the award be? Nothing.
Hey you thought Bob died falling off a ladder, no he died in car accident- ok, and?? I used to think Bob was from Scranton, but it turns out he’s from Wikes-Barre- so fucking what? They thought Abu Jamal killed him, it was actually Jim Duggan- the point is…? The point is they were lied to, and that adds a bit of hurt to the death, nothing more. How about a hearing about health care for all Americans instead of this self-centered bullshit that “affects” four people out of 300 billion.
I am quite sure there are plenty of soldiers families who want similar answers, and why are they not getting a hearing? Again, why is a fucking football player so special?
There has been testimony that servicemen present were ordered to lie to the Tillmans or face consequences. There has been testimony that the Lynch rescue was delayed to allow for filming. The U.S. Army’s PR team isn’t just distorting facts; they’re creating the news. These are being investigated because the U.S. Army made a big deal out of them, not because Tillman’s survivors or Ms. Lynch are making a big deal out of them
Stealing jokes that Henny Youngman told in the Borscht Belt in 1946- genius.
Use take my wife please next time.
Again, how did the misrepresentation cause any added damage to the family? You can say it did all day long, but it didn’t. The admin lied about he died, against their will, but if they still believed in the war, would they have minded? If it were a just war and they got permission?
It’s not really genius - it’s blatant joke-theft. Thank you for the compliment though.
Yeah, I’d imagine that even if they agreed with the war in Afghanistan and the reasons it was being fought - which, you’ll remember, a WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE DID, including, HELLO, the Tillmans - they would be furious that they’d been lied to about their famous very close relative’s death to make a political point.
You either need to lay OFF the drugs, or start taking pure oxygen. You just ain’t makin’ no sense.
Well, like you said, the fact that they were lied to adds a bit of hurt to the death. It’s clearly affected them beyond the pain that losing him caused.
And as to why he’s so special, in that the press is more likely to report on this family’s efforts than that of John Doe’s family, for better or for worse, he was in a job, as a football player, that put him in the public eye. It certainly will come to no surprise to you that people with fame and noteriety, by virtue of having that fame and noteriety, are more able to get their causes in the public eye.
A near-exact analogy to the argument that the lie casued them added anything:
Disney finds out a daycare in Dubuque has Dinsey characters painted on the classroom walls. They sue to have them removed, saying the unauthorized drawings “damage” them in some way. In what way? In no way- they just don’t like not getting paid for it, and can have it removed so they do. Disney wasn’t harmed in any way, they were just pissed and wanted something done about it.
Same here.
Let’s say tomorrow GWB goes on TV saying he started the whole cover-up and now apologizes. What effect does that have on the Tillman’s- oh yeah, “peace of mind”, “closure” and other such non-quantifiable bullshite.
This thread wasn’t causing enough controversy that you decided to bring in copyright and trademark infringement? But, to respond to your hijack, Disney is harmed by the unauthorized pictures because, by law, they have the right to decide who gets to use their images and be compensated for that use. If the day care center is using those images without the consent of Disney, they’re harming Disney by not respecting their rights.
Jesus. I’ve noticed Wee Bairn saying stupid stuff in the past, but he’s moving into Der Trihs territory now.
Wee Bairn, what the fuck is your point?
That Pat Tillman deserved to die for being so stupid to join the military?
That his family deserved to be lied to because Pat Tillman was so stupid to join the military?
That his family are assholes because they’re angry about being lied to?
That they’re assholes because investigating Pat Tillman’s death will just get some stupid 20 year old trigger puller in trouble, not the guy who ordered the lies?
That because George Bush is such an obvious asshole liar, any investigation into George Bush’s lies is misguided, since liars like George Bush will only make some underling take the fall?
Guess you’re shaping up to win the April anti-Doper award.
An admission by the highest authority in America that the armed services had deliberately lied to keep the American public’s patriotism a’simmerin’? Well, it would prove to the 30%-ers that the government really HAS lied. It would show the country that Bush has the ability to admit to a serious mistake. Not to “take responsibility,” which is like an “I’m sorry you were offended” non-apology.
I seriously don’t understand how a person who has more than two brain cells to play with* doesn’t understand why this is important.
But those rights, while exisiting under the law, are not tangible or quantifiable.
If this were a court case, how could you prove damages here? Slander I can see, may cause you to lose work. But this is GOOD slander- where’s the harm? “They said good things about me”?? And I know the intent was totally wrong, but end result, he was made out to be a hero, again, how is family harmed by that?
But, to respond to your hijack, Disney is harmed by the unauthorized pictures because, by law, they have the right to decide who gets to use their images and be compensated for that use. If the day care center is using those images without the consent of Disney, they’re harming Disney by not respecting their rights.