Fuck you, Pat Tillmans brother

The BBQ Pit
81

[QUOTE=Hamadryad]
An admission by the highest authority in America that the armed services had deliberately lied to keep the American public’s patriotism a’simmerin’? Well, it would prove to the 30%-ers that the government really HAS lied. It would show the country that Bush has the ability to admit to a serious mistake. Not to “take responsibility,” which is like an “I’m sorry you were offended” non-apology.

I seriously don’t understand how a person who has more than two brain cells to play with* doesn’t understand why this is important.

  • I understand that this is an unproven assumption.
    [/QUOTE]

That 30% is not going to budge no matter if GWB admits to killing babies in China to drink their blood. The other 70% knows he’s a liar, so again, what would be gained?

82

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
If this were a court case, how could you prove damages here? Slander I can see, may cause you to lose work. But this is GOOD slander- where’s the harm? “They said good things about me”?? And I know the intent was totally wrong, but end result, he was made out to be a hero, again, how is family harmed by that?
[/QUOTE]

Are we talking about the Tillmans again? If that’s the case, I’m not a lawyer and don’t know? Emotional distress? Violation of FOIA, maybe? I don’t know. As far as I know, though, the Tillmans aren’t suing for damages, so that makes the question moot.

83

[QUOTE=Lemur866]
Guess you’re shaping up to win the April anti-Doper award.
[/QUOTE]

Quite the coveted prize these days. Comes with its own corner throne and conical crown, I understand. Seems like a shoo-in to me.

84

[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
Quite the coveted prize these days. Comes with its own corner throne and conical crown, I understand. Seems like a shoo-in to me.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe this analogy will help. Cindy Sheehan, who at least had a son who enlisted during peacetime and has a bigger gripe, followed Bush around, stood in the rain and cold for days, got arrested, etc. etc. and I assume at some point gave up getting “answers” or a meeting with Dubya. So in effect she threw away a couple of years that she could have been doing something constructive chasing something that anyone could tell you she was never going to get with GWB.

Same as when a person chains themself to a tree to keep a strip mall from going up- they go to jail, mall goes up anayway. And yes I understand this is how some deal with grief, I say pick your battles, and you ain’t winning this won against GWB.

85

[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
Quite the coveted prize these days. Comes with its own corner throne and conical crown, I understand. Seems like a shoo-in to me.
[/QUOTE]

Are we in the dark ages? Someone doesn’t share our view on a non-factual subject and they’re daft?

86

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Are we in the dark ages? Someone doesn’t share our view on a non-factual subject and they’re daft?
[/QUOTE]
No, I think you’re daft whether people share your view on this or not.

87

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Are we in the dark ages? Someone doesn’t share our view on a non-factual subject and they’re daft?
[/QUOTE]
Dude, reread your thread title.

88

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Maybe this analogy will help. Cindy Sheehan, who at least had a son who enlisted during peacetime and has a bigger gripe, followed Bush around, stood in the rain and cold for days, got arrested, etc. etc. and I assume at some point gave up getting “answers” or a meeting with Dubya. So in effect she threw away a couple of years that she could have been doing something constructive chasing something that anyone could tell you she was never going to get with GWB.

Same as when a person chains themself to a tree to keep a strip mall from going up- they go to jail, mall goes up anayway. And yes I understand this is how some deal with grief, I say pick your battles, and you ain’t winning this won against GWB.
[/QUOTE]

Jesus, you really are this fucking stupid.

These are completely different issues. Cindy Sheehan was protesting to get George Bush to cancel the war in Iraq. The Tillman family are upset that the military covered up the circumstances of his death.

The two situations are completely different. And your contention that it’s pointless to investigate Pat Tillman’s death and the coverup of the friendly fire incident is pre-fucking-posterous. Of course protesting isn’t going to get us out of Iraq, only voting can do that. But expecting the army to do their jobs is not an unreasonable magical fairyland fantasy.

And you’re a fucking dolt in your contention that the likely result of further investigations will only be to put the guy who mistakenly shot Tillman in prison. That’s got about a 0% chance of happening, you fucking child. How about the investigation showing who ordered who to lie about the circumstances of Tillman’s death? Only an idiot like you would believe that the person who gave that order was George Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld.

And even if an investigation doesn’t end up ruining the career of the liar who gave the order, the threat of the investigation is going to make it less likely that such orders will be given in the future, and less likely that such orders will be obeyed. Or, to put it in more cynical terms, if we don’t bother with even a token investigation, don’t you think that makes such coverups MORE likely in the future?

And lastly, why don’t you shut the fuck up before you make yourself look like an even bigger idiot?

89

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Are we in the dark ages? Someone doesn’t share our view on a non-factual subject and they’re daft?
[/QUOTE]

No, only a small subset of the people I disagree with are morons. Congratulations on making the cut.

90

[QUOTE=Lemur866]
Jesus, you really are this fucking stupid.

These are completely different issues. Cindy Sheehan was protesting to get George Bush to cancel the war in Iraq. The Tillman family are upset that the military covered up the circumstances of his death.

The two situations are completely different. And your contention that it’s pointless to investigate Pat Tillman’s death and the coverup of the friendly fire incident is pre-fucking-posterous. Of course protesting isn’t going to get us out of Iraq, only voting can do that. But expecting the army to do their jobs is not an unreasonable magical fairyland fantasy.

And you’re a fucking dolt in your contention that the likely result of further investigations will only be to put the guy who mistakenly shot Tillman in prison. That’s got about a 0% chance of happening, you fucking child. How about the investigation showing who ordered who to lie about the circumstances of Tillman’s death? Only an idiot like you would believe that the person who gave that order was George Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld.

And even if an investigation doesn’t end up ruining the career of the liar who gave the order, the threat of the investigation is going to make it less likely that such orders will be given in the future, and less likely that such orders will be obeyed. Or, to put it in more cynical terms, if we don’t bother with even a token investigation, don’t you think that makes such coverups MORE likely in the future?

And lastly, why don’t you shut the fuck up before you make yourself look like an even bigger idiot?
[/QUOTE]

Geez, look up the word analogy in the dictionary before I respond.

Ok, you see the part where about showing something similar in different issues? The scenarios don’t have to be exact, right, or else you would have to be a dimiwt to need the analogy. You’re not a dimwit are you? The point of the analogy which you have either missed or ignored becasue your brilliant retort wouldn’t be possible otherwise, is that in both cases people are looking for “answers” they aren’t gonna get, so why waste your time? If I can see it is a waste, why can’t the Tillmans?

Do I think GWB is hands on enough to know anything about the war, let alone knew this? No, but this high profile, was he made aware of it at some point immediately after? Absolutely I think that. Do I think he had a problem with the cover-up, no matter when he found out? I do not. Post back in a year when some low ranking person gets demoted and that’s it.

Intersting that you are knocking me for making comments on things I don’t know, but you are saying you know the pertinent events in this case, who knew what and when? Why would only an idiot thinkg GWB, DR, or DC knew about the cover-up. Please expound when you make a contention like this.

91

[QUOTE=NurseCarmen]
I think true bravery is Wee Bairn, coming back to this thread over and over again to prove how ill informed he actually is.
[/QUOTE]

Well, he’s a lot more persistent than some out there.

He deserves, um, credit for that, eh?

-Joe

92

[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
No, only a small subset of the people I disagree with are morons. Congratulations on making the cut.
[/QUOTE]

Look bottom line is the family thinks dead brother was some sort of special person who “deserves answers”. My grandma thinks I’m special too*- what does that mean? Everyone is special to someone right, but in the grand scheme of things, his death is no bigger a loss to the world than any of the other 3000 people who died or the million in Iraq. So if no one else gets a trial with answers, why should you? CIndy Sheehan at one point just asked to talk to Bush, and was rebuffed.

*set up line for some of you who like to add witty comments without any actual content.

93

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Look bottom line is the family thinks dead brother was some sort of special person who “deserves answers”. My grandma thinks I’m special too*- what does that mean? Everyone is special to someone right, but in the grand scheme of things, his death is no bigger a loss to the world than any of the other 3000 people who died or the million in Iraq. So if no one else gets a trial with answers, why should you?
[/QUOTE]
Because the other 2999 didn’t get press releases lying about their deaths. The powers-that-be made Pat Tillman’s death an media event, not Tillman’s family.

94

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Look bottom line is the family thinks dead brother was some sort of special person who “deserves answers”. My grandma thinks I’m special too*- what does that mean? Everyone is special to someone right, but in the grand scheme of things, his death is no bigger a loss to the world than any of the other 3000 people who died or the million in Iraq. So if no one else gets a trial with answers, why should you? CIndy Sheehan at one point just asked to talk to Bush, and was rebuffed.

*set up line for some of you who like to add witty comments without any actual content.
[/QUOTE]
The family doesn’t think he’s more important than anyone else who has died in the Middle East (except insofar as any family does). However, because he was a famous person, his family is pissed that he was awarded a Bronze Star (posthumously, natch) and put up before the nation - because he was already famous - as a symbol of the Patriotic Hero, Cut Down By Our Enemies.

If you think the cult of celebrity is overblown and stupid, I don’t think many people will disagree. Your whole argument seems to rest on your resentment of the special treatment he was given after his death. THAT’S THE PROBLEM HIS FAMILY HAS WITH IT, TOO.

What part of this are you not getting?

95

[QUOTE=pravnik]
Because the other 2999 didn’t get press releases lying about their deaths. The powers-that-be made Pat Tillman’s death an media event, not Tillman’s family.
[/QUOTE]

I agree, the media lied to the family to get support for the war. He did not die in heroic battle, he got shot by a 'Merican. What will finding out the name of the individulal who ordered the cover-up do for the family? “So he’ll never cover-up anything ever again”? This ain’t like getting a serial killer off of the streets “so he’ll never kill anyone else’s child again”. Even if someone gets fingered, do we really think it will be the actual person, and do we think the actual person anyway was a rogue operative, or was he doing so with the wink wink acknowldgement of his superiors? Do we think just some field sergeant orchestrated this whole lie, and no one upper level knew?

96

[QUOTE=Hamadryad]
An admission by the highest authority in America that the armed services had deliberately lied to keep the American public’s patriotism a’simmerin’? Well, it would prove to the 30%-ers that the government really HAS lied. It would show the country that Bush has the ability to admit to a serious mistake.
[/QUOTE]

Not to defend WB here, but come on.

What you’ve said above is a total steaming load. The 30%-ers you’re talking about won’t care about that lie, and if they do, they’re rationalize it.

It was done to support the troops, after all. People need heroes. It’s not the fault of the administration that people wouldn’t just accept the happy story leave it the hell alone.

It’s all the liberal media trying to hamstring REAL heroes.

There’s the thought process of your 30%-ers. I know, because I see it every goddamned day here in lovely Mississippi, where Fox News is the Voice of Truth.

-Joe

97

[QUOTE=Hamadryad]
The family doesn’t think he’s more important than anyone else who has died in the Middle East (except insofar as any family does). However, because he was a famous person, his family is pissed that he was awarded a Bronze Star (posthumously, natch) and put up before the nation - because he was already famous - as a symbol of the Patriotic Hero, Cut Down By Our Enemies.

If you think the cult of celebrity is overblown and stupid, I don’t think many people will disagree. Your whole argument seems to rest on your resentment of the special treatment he was given after his death. THAT’S THE PROBLEM HIS FAMILY HAS WITH IT, TOO.

What part of this are you not getting?
[/QUOTE]

I am not getting the point or mentality of pursuing this when it has been exposed as a lie, the actual orchestrator will never be brought down, EXACTLY the same as the Iraq prison deal. Lower level people went to jail, you had the ruse implying no one in upper mgmnt knew or ordered the torture, when most would agree this is preposterous. Bitching about he was “used”, he was DEAD. If some rogue company starts putting Pat Tillman images on their sandwich spread, you don’t want that as a family maybe, BUT HOW ARE YOU ACTUALLY HARMED BY IT?

They lied and said you were a hero, not a paedophile. That’s like lying and telling everybody you have a big dick- would that bother you?

98

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
I am not getting the point or mentality of pursuing this when it has been exposed as a lie, the actual orchestrator will never be brought down, EXACTLY the same as the Iraq prison deal. Lower level people went to jail, you had the ruse implying no one in upper mgmnt knew or ordered the torture, when most would agree this is preposterous. Bitching about he was “used”, he was DEAD. If some rogue company starts putting Pat Tillman images on their sandwich spread, you don’t want that as a family maybe, BUT HOW ARE YOU ACTUALLY HARMED BY IT?
[/QUOTE]
If someone’s convicted of murder and gets knocked off for it, and his family later proves he was innocent, they do everything they can to make sure people know about it because they don’t want this kind of thing to happen again. Were they stupid for pursuing his innocence? After all, he was DEAD ANYWAY. It’s not like his family is HARMED by hearing his name spoken every day in the same sentence as “fucking murderer,” right?

Do you have the empathy of shoe leather? I mean DAMN.

They lied and said you were a hero, not accidentally shot by your own troops. That’s like lying and telling everybody you have a big dick- would that bother you?

Well, it would bother me if everyone said I had a big dick, because I am genetically female and have no interest whatsoever in becoming transgendered.

However, in the spirit of your question, YES, it would bother me, because it’s NOT THE TRUTH.

99

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
That’s like lying and telling everybody you have a big dick- would that bother you?
[/QUOTE]
That wouldn’t be a lie, though.

100

[QUOTE=Hamadryad]
If someone’s convicted of murder and gets knocked off for it, and his family later proves he was innocent, they do everything they can to make sure people know about it because they don’t want this kind of thing to happen again. Were they stupid for pursuing his innocence? After all, he was DEAD ANYWAY. It’s not like his family is HARMED by hearing his name spoken every day in the same sentence as “fucking murderer,” right?

Do you have the empathy of shoe leather? I mean DAMN.They lied and said you were a hero, not accidentally shot by your own troops. That’s like lying and telling everybody you have a big dick- would that bother you?

Well, it would bother me if everyone said I had a big dick, because I am genetically female and have no interest whatsoever in becoming transgendered.

However, in the spirit of your question, YES, it would bother me, because it’s NOT THE TRUTH.
[/QUOTE]

There are lies that harm you and lies that don’t. In this case, if they were still pro-war Dubya-ites, they probably wouldn’t be mad. But they are mad becasue their son is dead, and they realize he died in vain. They are mad at the whole admin, and want them to “pay” any way they can. But harping on the lie is a pointless and fruitless excursion.

It’s like when someone pisses you off and you wnat them to “pay”- but you gotta have something better than this.