In other words, you believe that if somebody has a job, a somebody doesn’t, it should stay that way, unless somebody who has no interest in the successful operation of the workplace decides that this is what cosmic justice says shoud happen?
That’s one involved meaning to give to life…
A Letter To Garcia by Elbert Hubbard (written in 1899)
Who the fuck is Garcia? I bet he’s some kinda tightass!
Just kidding.
county, you’re an idiot. Diogenes, you’re an idiot’s like-minded drinking buddy.
I don’t see how you can make a statement like this and still try to pass yourself off as someone with enough intelligence to carry on any kind of argument.
Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of “theft”? And where’s this “real world” you live in, because in the one in which everone else exists, that’s pretty much the definition. I understand that depending on the business, the level of infracture is a big consideration. Taking a pen from my office could be considered theft, but unless someone’s gunning for me, who’s really going to push for it? But in a place that sells most items under $20, someone stealing a $10 bottle of Tylenol is pretty much the equivolent of me walking out of my place with one of the old television sets they don’t use anymore. Sure, monetarily, they’re completely different, but the issue is all about personal character…if this guy thinks he’s allowed to steal (and it was stealing) after his boss just told him that theft won’t be tolerated, then it shows he has no regaurd for his boss or the rules of the establishment. What’s going to keep him from taking another bottle tomorrow if he accidentaly leaves this one at home? Or taking some nose spray if his allergies act up? I love everyone defending him with this “Old habits die hard” defence. What’s his “old habit”? Stealing from the company? Yeah, with habits like that, I can see why you’d want to keep him on staff. :rolleyes:
And for those who claim it’s not a “big deal”, do you think he’d get any job if he told them his reason for leaving the last job was “I got caught pocketing a bottle of Tylenol”? Hell no! If it’s not a big deal, then why would any other job care about it? Hmmm…could it be because no one wants to hire a thief? Sorry, but the old adage is still out there, “Once a thief, always a thief”, and this guy has to do a lot to prove others otherwise. So far, he’s not doing a bang up job!
Before you call me a “tightass manager,” I am not now, nor have I ever been in a management position at any job I’ve had. I’ve always been a peon. I’m just what some people call “a decent employee.” I do my job, I take pride in even the shittiest of jobs I’ve had, and I do them well. And it pisses me off when fellow employees can’t be bothered to make minimum effort to pull their share. You may think my earlier comparrisson to you and Dio was off, but you’ve both proven you have the same kind of mindset when it comes to being a worthless employee. He feels one should be one, and you feel management has no right to correct them for this attitude. Different sides of the same coin. So, you’ve already given me the option to bite you, and I’ve turned it down. Don’t bother to do it again. You, on the other hand, have your head so far up your ass, biting others would be rather difficult, so how’s about you just eat shit, dumbfuck.
I’m sorry but I have to say this…
Many of you are pessimistic, harsh, negative, capricious, unempathetic wrath-of-God type people. The fact that you would fire someone without personally warning him means you all would be piss-poor managers IMO. You don’t care how long he worked there…what good he has done. No, you’ll just can his ass. My God people! LISTEN TO YOURSELVES! You add misery to the world with glee.
A great manager gives the person some chance. If I was the manager, I would have pulled him in private and warned him. If his attitude wasn’t apologetic then I would fire him on the spot. If he did it again, he would be fired on the spot. At least I gave him a chance. You know what? I would bet you $10,000 even money that the PharmD would never have done that again.
Jesus, isn’t there anyone here with some perspective?
OH NO! He’s a THIEF and must be fired cuz he’s a dumbshit who didn’t listen at a meeting. Warning him? Why the hell should I do that? NO! I’ll just fire him.
Anyone who thinks that the PharmD should have been fired without a personal warning should NEVER be in charge of managing people. That person is way too capricious, disruptive and negative a person and should have their chances to do damage should be severely curtailed.
As far as Stemba is concerned, he is probably doing fine now. However, the unnecessary disruption and damage he caused makes me angry.
When you are dealing with HUMAN QUALITY OF LIFE, a firm but gentle hand is in order. To do otherwise means you are a negative, world-better-off-without-you human being.
On the positive side,
Stemba has a great test when I look for supervisors (mini-managers) in my dept. I can use a story like his for a setup and then see how they react to ‘what would you do’.
andymurph64, IIRC he was warned. Stemba said he held a store meeting during which he went over the subject of theft and the penalties thereof.
That’s more than adequate warning, in my book. Besides, theft is a criminal charge, and I would hope it would be understood by all employees, whether tacitly or implied, that illegal activities are a no-no on the job (and elsewhere, to boot).
I hardly think that counts as wrath-of-God managerial style.
Works for me. Theft is simple, clear cut, gross misconduct - instant dismissal.
What is the world coming to if you can’t steal from your job any more?
[shakes head]
Then you, Gary Kumquat, should never be a manager. You would never work for me.
Jetgirl, IMO (and I am also a manager), it was not enough warning. One more, one on one, was in order.
So the first warning was just a practice warning? Sorry, but I think that violates the whole idea of what a “warning” is supposed to be. He told them flat out what would happen if they stole from the store. Why isn’t that enough?
Before this completely degenerates… 
I have a serious question for the people who disagree with me…
You are the manager of a department. In that department, you have a good worker. He works hard and is competent at what he does.
However, he doesn’t like you. You overhear from others that he thinks your short and a girly-man (or manly-woman if appropriate). He is not insubordinate but there is this ‘edge’ about him and you think you can tell he doesn’t really like you. Again, though, he is one of your better workers.
Now, he makes a non-trivial mistake (a mistake that causes some problems). I’m not talking about illegal here, just in the course of his job he messed up something. For reference, everyone does every once in awhile (thinking my department here)
What would you do?
As noted, the chance not to steal was given in the employee meeting at which Stemba said that no employee theft would be tolerated. I’m guessing there is also an employee handbook which states that stealing is grounds for termination. I’m not saying that I’ve never swiped something from a workplace. I’m not innocent in that regard; I certainly have more than one pen or notebook at my house that former employers paid for. But I’m also not stupid enough to think that my employer wouldn’t have been completely within its rights to terminate me on the spot for it.
Given the fact that, following being fired, arrested, tried, convicted and fined, the PharmD in fact did it again, I will take that bet.
Andymurph- one more warning would have violated the terms that Stemba had just set forth that morning, therefore making him look bad in front of the workers. That would have basically made whatever leadership he had established null and void. When someone has a meeting and sets forth rules such as theft will not be tolerated and cause instant dismissal, I sure hope that they will enforce them because doing otherwise would undermine everything. In the PharmD’s case, one more warning was not part of the rules THAT WERE SET FORTH THAT VERY MORNING!
He had his chance, he didn’t listen. That’s his fault, not the manager’s. Maybe in another instance another warning would have worked, but when a manager has just told his workers that theft will incur immediate dismissal, he’s got to enforce that no matter who the worker is. Otherwise the staff will never listen.
That’s a completely different situation than theft. Not everyone likes everyone and most managers have come to figure that out. If not, then they shouldn’t be a manager. If he screwed up and caused a few problems, the manager should schedule a meeting with the person and talk it over and help the worker fix his errors so it doesn’t happen again. The fact that he doesn’t like me isn’t an issue. It shouldn’t come into play unless it directly affects his and my work.
The theft issue is different. Messing up and making a mistake is totally different than hearing a manager say that theft will not be tolerated in any form and then going and doing that very thing. Completely different.
Then I, Gary Kumquat, am a manager. You’re right about the end of the sentence though - I’d never work for you.
Been a manager for quite a few years now, and along with the other founders of the firm I’m kind of pleased of with the way it’s grown. Still just a small company, a shade under two hundred employees, but it’s fun and challenging. Most of our employees have been here a while now, and our staff turnover is negligible.
In that time though, I’ve dismissed 5 members of staff. Only one of them was through an escalation process (written warning, verbal warning, internal tribunal, dismissal). Usually people are reasonable, and if both sides make their points clear at the outset of working together then you tend to get on fine. To do that, it’s fairly important you set up ground rules - especially on behaviour that is just unacceptable. That’s where the other 4 dismissals came in. Two substance abuse tests (for people working offshore in hazardous environment), one for reasons I wouldn’t state in a public forum, and one for theft (fraudulent expense claims).
If you steal, you go. The principle is pretty fucking simple. Stealing from the company isn’t an arguable, excusable or acceptable action. I don’t claim to be the worlds greatest manager, and anyone whose ever done the job knows it’s a constant learning process, but I’ve never seen anything so far that would make me think theft is something you can talk around between employee and employer. That seems to sit pretty well with the rest of the staff, so I think I’ll just rest easy on that policy.
Any other pompous assumptions you’d like to make?
What in holy hell does this have to do with anything? Not a damn thing, that’s what. As a manager, you just have to assume that secretly, deep down everyone hates your guts. Or they don’t. Either way, it makes abso-fuckin’-lutely no difference in how you do your job. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
Define ‘mistake’. If said ‘mistake’ is breaking a law, then fire him. If the ‘mistake’ is forgetting to take out the trash before shift change, then you write him up and tell him not to do it again.
What I don’t think you understand here is that it’s not the manager’s job to give two shits what the employees think about them. It’s the manager’s job to <i>manage</i> the employees, and that includes weeding out those that can’t follow orders or endanger the company or other employees in any way.
I presume if you’re in something even approaching a halfway professional company you already have a disciplinary procedure.
You talk about mistake, rather than misconduct. I know of few things you can describe as a “mistake” that would amount to gross misconduct. On that basis (which is all I have from your question) it’s unlikely to be a dismissable offence. By the sounds of it, you’re looking at most at a verbal or written warning.
The question you seem to be skirting around is how hard do you take him to task, on the basis of his apparent dislike for you. Do you go for him as hard as you can, or do you treat him as any you would any other employee who screwed up to the same extent.
Dumb question. If you make a bigger than normal issue of it you’ve shown that you play favourites, and that you’ve let rumour and hearsay get to you. That’s purely going to make it harder to run the team, as well as increasing any grievances the guy has against you.
By the same token, you can’t let him off lightly. You basically discipline him to the exact same measure as you’ve shown for previous examples of this mistake.
And on preview, I second the XJETGIRLX question - What in holy hell does this have to do with anything?
Okay, so the basic understanding that “Stealing is wrong,” the fact that company policy against theft was most likely spoken to him upon hire, and brought up again at any company meeting discussing shrink and any other time a member of the staff got fired, the fact that he was JUST TOLD theft would no longer be tolerated, and basic common sense isn’t ENOUGH warning for him? You seriously think he has to get another personal “hey, don’t steal” conversation was necessary? Man, I would LOVE to work for you, because as long as I say “I’m sorry,” I’m pretty sure I could get away with anything. When a manager tells someone “Don’t do this or you’re outta here,” and someone does it, if the manager just gives them another warning, it proves to the employee that the manager is weak and unwilling to go threw the hassle of firing him. And when that happens, there’s dessention. You get employees that slack off and don’t do their jobs becasue they know the worst they’re going to get is a stern talking to.
Say it was you who was the manager and you pulled him aside after this and had your little one-on-one and he says he’s sorry and it won’t happen again. You’d let him go, right? And if you catch him snagging something else a month later, what would you do then? You’d probably just give him another talking to, he’d say he’s sorry, and the cycle repeats. And your store’s out lord knows how much because you can bet your sweet bippy, he’s probably stealing while you’re away as well.
As for your second post, Andymurph64 with that oh-so-wishy washy tale, let me ask you this:
You have an employee. He’s been working for you for about three years now. It’s a shitty job, but he does it, and he does it well. Not only that, he’s the perfect employee in virtually every way. He’s always in on time, stays late when necessary, comes in early when needed, and even shows up on his days off when called, which pretty much equates to him working an average of six days a week. Hard worker, never complains, and is just liked by everybody.
Then one day, you catch him shooting up heroine in the bathroom. You never told him “Don’t shoot up heroine at work,” so it’s not like he’s had a warning or anything. Do you fire him on the spot, or just let it go?
I know the severity is a lot different, but it’s much more akin to what happened to PharmD than your paper annalogy.
You know,** andymurph64**, I’m rather astounded by your logic.
You are making the assumption that it is the manager’s job to somehow “raise” their employee’s or teach them ethics.
It’s not.
When I, as a small business owner, managed workers, I was firmly of the belief that my obligations towards my employee’s included:
From them I expected:
If I had caught anyone stealing (and actually, my husband did) termination would be instant.
Period.