[QUOTE=Cisco]
Where did you get the mistaken impression that I am afraid? It’s a matter of polite vs. impolite. Ninety nine times out of a hundred, when someone asks you what you think of their native land, they’re fishing for compliments.
[/QUOTE]
Remember that the OP was not asked for his opinion by some total stranger, but by his friends. Neglecting to mention whichever negative judgments you might hold is not polite, it is shallow and insincere. In my experience, some of the most interesting things I have learned about my country I learned in conversations with foreigners making honest observations about the crazy way we run this place.
[QUOTE=Zoe]
You had the right to criticize America. The woman had the right to criticize your opinion. You had the right to be pissed at her response. It’s hard to known how to balance things out when you want to be genuine and still have a good time. And then there are some people whose opinions I won’t allow to take up any space in my head. That woman sounds like one of those people. I like those who can argue a point and still have a good nature about it.
[/QUOTE]
Of course, if someone criticizes your country unfairly, anyone has the right to state their disagreement and criticize the criticism. This, however, is not what happened; instead, the woman (incorrectly, in my view) questioned the OP’s position to offer any such criticism to begin with. Logically, this is not criticizing the content of the opinion in any substantive way, it does not relate in any way to whether or not what the OP was saying is true or not.
[QUOTE=MGibson]
I have to admit that whenever I hear that Americans have a fetish for the American flat I think to myself, “what fetish?” I find it rather cute that so many Europeans are uncomfortable with all the flag waving that goes on in the United States. I don’t really see the American flag everywhere I go here in the United States. Driving around in Little Rock most of the places with flags are government buildings – post office, schools, etc. – a few corporate offices and car dealerships. It wasn’t that much different in Dallas either.
Now of course in recent years there have been a bit more flags flying on automobiles and little magnets resembling the flag but those aren’t as ubiquitous as they once were. I really don’t understand why flying flags would bother people.
Marc
[/QUOTE]
(bolding mine)
But see, the thing is - the use of flags in front of those buildings is, in and of itself, rather extraordinary when compared to the rest of the industrialized world (I’m thinking mainly of Europe here). I’ve lived in Ireland 2 1/2 years, and the orange, white and green is just not something I see on a daily basis. About the only time I encounter it is when Ireland is playing England or France in rugby, or in front of the occasional B&B who uses it to appeal, ironically enough, to Americans.
Can’t recall seeing the flags of Germany, Belgium, or the Netherlands much on display, either, during my visits there.
And unlike in the U.S., I don’t think I’ve ever seen even a single Irish flag in front of anyone’s private residence here. Very few bumper stickers, either, but that’s a different thread…
I love them too. Rough and tumble, they are. As a matter of fact I can’t think of any countrys I dislike. You know who is really cool, the Maori, from New Zealand. I’d love to meet one of them, just an average Joe. I’ll bet we would get along famously. I got to get out more.
I’m just here to express my American opinion that the American in the bar was a rude bitch, and the idea that you shouldn’t, when asked, politely express your thoughts about a country you’re visiting is stupid. It’s the type of mentality that makes the rest of the world justifiably think of you as a nationalistic dickhead who thinks his country can do no wrong.
Unfortunately, small-minded idiots are incapable of complex thoughts like loving your country while acknowledging that it might have some faults.
But see, the thing is - the use of flags in front of those buildings is, in and of itself, rather extraordinary when compared to the rest of the industrialized world (I’m thinking mainly of Europe here). I’ve lived in Ireland 2 1/2 years, and the orange, white and green is just not something I see on a daily basis. About the only time I encounter it is when Ireland is playing England or France in rugby, or in front of the occasional B&B who uses it to appeal, ironically enough, to Americans.
Imagine you’re in London. It’s your home, and has been for a year. Your British friends ask you what you think of the place. You respond honestly - some positives, some negatives. But mostly, you try to give an honest appraisal of your experiences. This is done at normal bar conversation level, which the people next to you would have to strain to hear in detail.
Would you really expect a British person to chime in and angrily rant about how you have no right to criticise the place because you have President Bush yadda yadda yadda? Do be honest.
pdts
[/QUOTE]
No. I would expect to get shivved by a hooligan or a chav on my way out.
But see, the thing is - the use of flags in front of those buildings is, in and of itself, rather extraordinary when compared to the rest of the industrialized world (I’m thinking mainly of Europe here).
[/quote]
When I lived in Munich there was only one building near where I lived that flew the West German flag. It’s been so long that I cannot remember what that building was.
I honestly don’t understand what Europeans find so unnerving or uncomfortable about the ubiquitous appearance of our flag within our borders. I understand that our flag is on display more often that most Europeans are used to but, save for 4th of July celebrations, they’re not really in your face all the time. I can see why they might find it unusual but to be uncomfortable with it, really? Do Europeans attribute a different meaning to the presence of flags than Americans do?
As to the OP and the Pledge of Allegiance, I don’t believe I’ve even had the opportunity to say it since third grade. When I went to schools on military bases we said the pledge every morning before class started but once I went to schools off base it never happened. Then again, when I started going to movie theaters off base I was surprised that the Star Spangled Banner didn’t play before each movie. I remember thinking how odd it was not to stand before the picture started.
It’s a pretty rare thing to see one flying at a private residence here in the states.
I honestly don’t understand what Europeans find so unnerving or uncomfortable about the ubiquitous appearance of our flag within our borders.
[/QUOTE]
Europeans are skeeved out by a lot of things Americans do. Dating, for instance. I started a thread a year or so ago, asking what Europeans do if they don’t date. One guy said he couldn’t imagine a dinner date, sitting across from someone while they eat. I don’t know why that would be odd and scary, but to him it was.
[QUOTE=Rilchiam]
Europeans are skeeved out by a lot of things Americans do. Dating, for instance. I started a thread a year or so ago, asking what Europeans do if they don’t date. One guy said he couldn’t imagine a dinner date, sitting across from someone while they eat. I don’t know why that would be odd and scary, but to him it was.
[/QUOTE]
W.T.F! That guy is weird. The dating scene is probably different in some ways depending where you are, although the date I went on with in Vermont with a girl I met in a bar the night before felt exactly like all the dates I’ve gone on in Ireland.
As to the OP and the Pledge of Allegiance, I don’t believe I’ve even had the opportunity to say it since third grade. <snip>
[/quote]
Oh as I mentioned at the start, different strokes for different folks. I don’t have a problem with the pledge, and I’ve only encountered it once, at a political rally. What I was telling my friends was that 10s of thousands of people standing and reciting a chant to the nation in unison was somewhat unnerving for me.
You have to realise that I come from a country where almost noone knows the national anthem, and very few know even the first verse. It was just culture shock, I suppose.
[QUOTE=MGibson]
It’s a pretty rare thing to see one flying at a private residence here in the states.
Marc
[/QUOTE]
This is false, in my experience, though I am in the South. Especially when you get outside of town around here, a very large proportion of houses has a US flag outside.
Pick a direction and drive from where I am now, I’d be surprised if I didn’t see at least one or two in the first minute of driving.
She thought she was delivering a witty and well placed zinger.
Blame the demon alcohol.
Lot’s of people, after a few beverages, think they are the very height of clever. They never tire of forcing their way into conversations they have no place in. Of course, they are really being rude and obnoxious, just like this woman was.
Usually it’s easy to forgive in others, especially when you may have misspoken yourself, in your past, while well lubricated.
[QUOTE=MGibson]
When I lived in Munich there was only one building near where I lived that flew the West German flag. It’s been so long that I cannot remember what that building was.
[/QUOTE]
Funny, in my two years living in Germany I saw plenty of flags and banners. Although probably more city and state banners hanging from the light fixtures downtown than federal flags. We used to steal them for souveneirs. I still have a giant Bavarian one around here somewhere.
I don’t know about that. I’ve seen quite a few Irish flags flying at private residences. I guess it depends on what part of America you are from.
[QUOTE=elbows]
She thought she was delivering a witty and well placed zinger.
Blame the demon alcohol.
Lot’s of people, after a few beverages, think they are the very height of clever. They never tire of forcing their way into conversations they have no place in. Of course, they are really being rude and obnoxious, just like this woman was.
Usually it’s easy to forgive in others, especially when you may have misspoken yourself, in your past, while well lubricated.
[/QUOTE]
It’s just culture shock for the OP. There are no drunk and obnoxious people in English pubs.
[QUOTE=Loach]
It’s just culture shock for the OP. There are no drunk and obnoxious people in English pubs.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure if you’re agreeing with me or not here - but if the situation was reversed, and I was the Brit asking my American friend for his thoughts on the UK, and a rude woman interrupted and had a go at him, I’d be similarly critical.
[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
Based on her performance here, I do not trust the OP’s version of events.
[/QUOTE]
That’s fine, noone asked you to. I’m intrigued though - why not? Because I’m angry about it? I’ve not changed my story or anything like that, and it’s hardly outlandish.
Probably the same bitch I met on a bus in Manchester (UK) back in '86.
We flew into Manchester because it was cheaper and were headed for the train station to get to London. On the bus, this loud mouthed young woman was blathering on about all the people who come to “this country” (meaning America) and badmouth it. She thought they should all shut up and go home.
I was sitting there laughing my ass off, because she wasn’t IN “this country”, she was in Britain, and she was pulling the typical Loud Ugly American Tourist routine.
That being said, there are a whole lot of places in this world where, when they ask you what you think of the place, you’d damn well better not say a bad word.
That being said, there are a whole lot of places in this world where, when they ask you what you think of the place, you’d damn well better not say a bad word.
But this ain’t one of them.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly - were I in Moscow, or Seoul even, I would keep my mouth shut. Not out of a conviction that I have no right to my opinion, but out of worry that I’d get beaten to a bloody pulp. But then I doubt I would be seriously asked for my opinion in semi-public in either of those places.
I thought America was better than that. And for the most part, it is; the bitch from last night and Cisco on here show that one shouldn’t assume too much civilisation, though.
