Japan Government monitoring of Twitter and personal blogs – Safecast
But the current situation at the crippled power plant matters to larger issues. To wit: people will be led to ask themselves, “what is the worst-case scenario if something goes horribly wrong with this or this, and what would it take to deal with it?”
Meanwhile, to deal with the Fukushima radiation leakage requires a half-billion dollar ice wall to stop the radiation leak. The good news is that this plan may succeed in at least keeping the radiation on-site. The bad news is that it is a little late, and only one aspect of a massive disaster response.
In fact, the switch to renewables is a significant part of the Fukushima disaster response. Japan’s last working nuclear reactor was switched off. (week of Sept. 21, 2013)
Though it isn’t that simple, as skeptics can see in the rest of that article.
I’m sure it’s totally unrelated to them shutting down all their nuclear reactors, but Japan’s greenhouse-gas emissions climbed to their second-highest level on record in the last fiscal year.
Let’s hope those renewables get cheaper too.
[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive]
You oughta fire off a memo real quick to the folks in Japan installing such a system right now and let them know it can never work before they go to all the trouble.
[/QUOTE]
It’s a test bed, not a full program. We can come back and address this after 2017 when the first stage of testing is done and we see the price of actually putting this into production. I’m massively skeptical that this is going to be a viable solution coupled with wind and solar, but I can pretty much guarantee you that coupling those together is going to drive the price of energy for such a system through the roof.
Which is enough battery power for around 750k homes for a day…maybe a million homes in California. And this is a RFP for proposals to vendors to attempt to come up with a solution by 2020, not a system that’s currently being put into place. I’m not sure if you are trying to play fast and loose with your cite here or you really are not seeing where things stand on this today. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and just say you are massively misreading where we are at with energy storage as a viable PRODUCTION solution today. And I seriously have doubts we could ever scale this up to the levels we are talking about to make it viable to more than a few niche markets. I could be wrong (not only am I not an expert on this but I don’t play one on the SDMB…nor have I slept in a Holiday Inn Express lately), and there could be major breakthroughs in energy storage technology just around the corner.
No, your cites simply show that someone is looking into it and there are some test beds and trials in the pipeline. There are the same things for fusion power and a lot of other things (car companies have invested billions in hydrogen power fuel cells…do you expect to see those on the road anytime soone?). Just because someone is looking into it does not equate to the technology will be appearing soon…or ever. It might not be technically feasible. It might not be economically viable. Or it might be both, but fails to be competitive with other forms of energy we already have since it adds costs to variable renewable energy systems such as solar or wind. Or, it might work out and we will see a gradual adoption of such a system a few decades from now.
[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive]
XT, what is it about nuclear power that makes you so agitated? I never see you like this- even when setting straight the most obvious trolls you proceed thoughtfully and straightforwardly. But when the topic turns to nuclear power, you go ballistic (pun intended). What’s the story?
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it’s a sensitive subject. Leaving aside the fact that, IMHO FX and his minions are freaking idiots of the first order and spew ignorant crap wrapped in half truths and hyperbolic fabrications, it’s deeply frustrating to me that nuclear has been so vilified and unused in the US. The anti-nukes, IMHO, are on par with the anti-vaxers, but they are many, many times more powerful in the US and abroad. To me, they have single handedly stifled the use of fission as a power source…a clean, carbon free and safe power source…and have forced us to use more coal fired power plants than we otherwise would have needed too, resulting in a yearly toll of 10’s of thousands of deaths and uncounted health problems. And all because of fear and ignorance and a basic ability to do risk management and threat evaluation. And this ignorance that has resulted in 10’s of thousands of deaths is not only allowed to continue, it’s encouraged to continue, while we hear pie in the sky about wind and solar and battery backups without any connection to the realities of scale…and all the while, we continue to build and use coal as our major source for generating electric power. The only viable technology we have today that isn’t fossil fuel based that COULD scale up to take the place of a majority of our coal power is nuclear fission. And great strides have been made in reactor design, making them even more safe, reliable, fault tolerant and even cheaper. Yet the US doesn’t take advantage of this, and instead we flail around, in fear and ignorance, while we try desperately to find any other solution to the power generation problem…and then we build more coal or natural gas power plants.
So, yeah…I’m a bit miffed at the whole thing. And I’m pretty sick of FX and his idiotic crew. Christ, we had at least 2 threads I can think of that went over 20 pages with this idiot, in a lot of cases talking to himself. The dude is an AGW denier, he is clueless and emotional about nuclear power and relative risk, and he’s only a bit less frustrating to engage with than freaking NFBW…and that’s saying something.
At any rate, that’s the thumbnail sketch as to why I generally go off a bit harder on this subject than others, FWIW.
No, people are sensitive about subjects, and your idiot style threadshitting every Fukushima disaster thread with your politics, rationalizations and bullshit emotional spench is pathetic, and obvious. You don’t give a fuck about the people suffering due to a horrific nuclear disaster. You are a hypocrite.
More rhetorical nonsense, which is your usual method of “caring” about real people really suffering. It’s you that engages in “ignorant crap wrapped in half truths and hyperbolic fabrications”, along with the nuclear industry. It’s a main reason so many people simply don’t trust anything you or any other nuclear lover tries to sell the public on.
Bullshit. If you think it was people that damaged “nuclear” you are deluded. Seriously, if you actually think it was pathetic hippies and moms and concerned scientists that had anything to do with stopping “nuclear”, you are completely out of touch with reality.
The only thing that stopped “nuclear”, and by this I mean nuclear power plants, was the “nuclear”. Nothing stopped the nuclear arms race, didn’t even slow it down. The only thing that stopped the above ground testing was the cesium buildup, when the dumb fucks finally realized it was in everything they ate, drank, fucked or smoked. And it was getting worse.
But nuclear reactors for power, just like in Japan right now, pretty much fucked themselves. From reading your ignorant spench bucket swill, you would think the “poor nuclear reactors” in japan were all shut down because people were protesting and upset and shit.
Instead of realizing that after a 6 reactor plant simply blew the fuck up, went completely south, is GONE, is over, is a steaming wreck spewing radioactivity into the ground and ocean, and will cost at least a hundred billion dollars just to keep it from getting worse, you think it’s some people banging on drums and fretting over what “could” happen.
You are a fucking joke.
Since the thread hijack just won’t end … let’s shut down this current line of bullshit.
Absolute bullshit. Even if we could build five thousand new reactors, there isn’t fuel for them. And of course even with the small number of reactors, nobody is even close to solving the really really long term problem of the “waste”, which is a huge cost issue, no matter what is done with it.
But fuck all that. Let’s do the math. let’s dream of a nuclear world.
To go nuclear in just the US would mean another 400 reactors. Let’s low ball the cost, put them at existing locations, save as much as we can. 10 billion would be a low figure.
That’s 4,000,000,000,000 US dollars to build. Assuming they can be built in less than 7 years, once we have to start fueling them, it’s 500 x 12,000,000 a year for uranium (current price)
So just the fuel each year is 6,000,000,000 US dollars. So our mythical nuclear replacement costs in the next ten years
4,000,000,000,000
- 18,000,000,000
4,018,000,000,000 US dollars in the next ten years. Assuming no delays, problems or rise in fuel costs. So we have no fossil fuels, and all nuclear electricity.
The cost to add solar panels (at current extreme high numbers) including labor and a tie in to the grid, is around 30,000 US dollars. This is a high figure to account for cloudy days, bad locations, etc. A sunny area would be far less.
So for the same amount for nuclear, at current prices we could put solar on 133,933,333 homes or businesses. Which is actually more homes than exist in the US.
No matter, it’s all estimates. Obviously large solar power plants would be cheaper, and solar costs would drop a lot if we were serious about doing it.
The point is, after 10 years of using solar everybody is ahead, as there is zero fule costs, and no nuclear waste costs, or decommissioning costs, or safety issues, or danger. (since a lot of the existing reactors are going to have to be retired, and replaced, the nuclear cost would actually be much higher)
Another ten years of solar and the costs are still almost zero. But just the fuel costs for our 500 reactors would be 12,000,000 x 500 x 10 = 60,000,000,000
There’s another 60 billion dollars just for uranium.
There’s another 2 million solar rooftops that could be solar. Just the cost of fuel for the reactors is actually expensive. (I don’t know why people think it’s cheap)
And at the increased rate of use, cheap uranium will run out soon. Extracting it from the oceans, even with a really new cool cheap method, would mean 60 billion dollars each year for fuel.
Compared to wind or solar, nuclear is expensive. Dangerous. And creates very hazardous waste.
Claiming the hippies or fools stopped nuclear is a myth. Just like “power too cheap to meter” was.
You can change the figures, like reducing the cost of building the new reactors. It still is too expensive, even assuming no accidents, delays or cost over runs. No earthquakes, tsunamis, dam failures, hurricanes, fires or human errors.
Or somebody crashing a 747 into the water intakes, as an act of war.
I’m on record of opposing **XT **on many items, I also do not agree with many proponents of nuclear power on how it should be implemented in the USA, I would follow a french model where the people that can be affected by a disaster are part owners of the nuclear plants and already have resources to deal with a disaster. I would further say that having the spent fuel stored next to the reactors was idiotic and we need to learn from a mistake like that.
Having said that what you say here is just a complete lie about XT, cite or it never happened.
**
Try2B Comprehensive** if you think FX is helping your cause, you are sadly mistaken, just here he is making a stupid accusation that should be repudiated, so I expect to see some acknowledgement of why FX should not be depended upon.
As for the OP, I would agree that many things need to be changed in the design and location of nuclear plants, but discussions about that are look as useless when very dumb premisses are starting discussions, or pits, like this one.
The dumb premise in this case was even noticed at reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1npuvk/water_6700_times_more_radioactive_than_legal/
So, I do see in the OP more alarmism than the context that should guide a “discussion” in practical terms nuclear power should consider more safeguards and better locations, and it is clear that in places like Japan one should investigate why some locations failed when others nearby passed even the Tsunami event with no disaster.
So, better locations and planning, it is really silly not to not do something in places like the USA with its vast territory and with the need to support renewables, and no, I do not think that the deals offered currently to the people in the USA are appropriate, since there will be still some risk I do think that the way forward has to include more involvement and revenue sharing for the communities involved.
Oh Jesus take the wheel. Now we have gigogalloper quoting Reddit as science.
It doesn’t matter how much bullshit you spew, what lies you create, or how insulting you try to be. Fukushima is an ongoing DISASTER site, with serious containment problems.
It’s not just that they can’t “decontaminate” the water they have to pump every day through the ruined buildings, the melted reactors, it’s that radioactive material from the cores is getting into the groundwater.
Anyplace else on the planet, just one reactor that melted down, and is being cooled by pumping water, which becomes radioactive, and core material is leaking into the ground and water table, just one reactor would be considered a serious fucking disaster.
There are three melted cores, and a whole lot more dangerous material on site, and they can’t move it. You have seriously damaged buildings, full of dangerous nuclear material, it’s really fucking dangerous.
if anything happens so peo[ple can’t work there, it becomes the same disaster they were dumping water on from helicopters. It’s not “over” by any definition.
But please, keep crying about how “those people” ruined nuclear for you.
Cite for when I did call it science?
Read it again you idiot, I said that it was so dumb a premise that even reddit did notice, and that is not a very flattering view of reddit nor the OP BTW.
You are so dumb as to not notice what was the intention, in the end what the poster mentioned makes sense and it is supported elsewere.
The point is that when even non science places like reddit get it right, it is people like you that sound even more stupid, not my problem if you want to double on that.
And we are still waiting on where did you get the idiotic accusation against XT.
I’m sorry, you seem to have me confused with somebody who gives a shit about your opinion.
No problem, as even the moderators told us, your opinion is only appropriate for the Pit. I do not post just for you, I post for others that can notice that you can not deal with the other cite that reports how alarmist you and others are with this subject. And that you can not make any posts unless you make lies about others like in the case of XT.
A single worker was able to accidently turn off the cooling system and put not just Japan in danger but the whole planet.
How can this happen? The overriding theme of Fukushima is running around not knowing what to do, trying anything and everything and asking for international expert help figuring out how to deal with things they still don’t know how to deal with. How can we pretend we’ve got a handle on nuclear energy when two years after the disaster started we can still accidentally shut off one of the most important power supplies in the world right now?
When these reactors fail, we don’t know what to do, and we aren’t prepared. Isn’t that evident?
26 minutes ago
Ah, you beat me to the story. No worries.
No, it isn’t evident, and the mindset that got us into this mess can’t grasp certain things. It’s how we got into this mess.
The question in this case IMHO should be: do you really think backups would not be what the international experts recommend too?
Well no, what is important is that after two years this can still happen and we obviously don’t have plans and preparations - which the nuclear industry assures us have been COMPLETELY AND THOROUGHLY foreseen and planned for.
Thank goodness the backup kicked in. Their current backup system worked this time. Is our plan to let reactors fail and then come up with backup systems that work? The nuclear industry assures us they’ve thought about all this and already planned it all in. The public isn’t buying it.
Should I tell him that the news he quoted and he himself is undermining his premise? 
Oh well, think about it for a second, it is really silly to claim that “obviously don’t have plans and preparations”, when the news reports that obviously they were prepared and had a plan.
[QUOTE=FXMastermind]
No, people are sensitive about subjects, and your idiot style threadshitting every Fukushima disaster thread with your politics, rationalizations and bullshit emotional spench is pathetic, and obvious. You don’t give a fuck about the people suffering due to a horrific nuclear disaster. You are a hypocrite.
[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: Dude, seriously…people can go back and look at what I’ve written in your other ridiculous threads on this subject, you stupid little butt muncher. I’ve never understood folks like you that don’t seem to get this or understand the concept.
Oh, and you are an idiot.
I’d go with ‘ignorance’ and ‘fear’ as the main reasons, with a side of ‘drank the propaganda kool-aid’ and ‘just plain fucking stupid’…the latter is especially the case with you.
Anyone who doesn’t realize that there is a huge anti-nuclear movement (really, several of them) out there who has basically prevented, delayed, increased the cost of and generally gotten in the way of expanding the nuclear industry is simply a clueless fuck monkey who doesn’t know what they are talking about and who’s opinion on this stuff is basically worth less than nothing. Which, interestingly enough, fits you to a T.
And you are an ignorant little piss ant who attempts to ‘win’ discussion through sheer stupidity, ignorance and the willingness to continue to spew ignorance and foam longer than anyone else is interested in continuing to beat their head against your stupidity. Not content to leave it at the 20+ page thread train wrecks that you started (and ended up spewing post after post to yourself, as the fucking troll you are) you post on this subject mainly in the Pit because you are too much of a fuck monkey to post a reasonable debate in GD on the subject, having had your ass kicked up around your ears whenever you try to have a discussion that isn’t about ignorance and fear but actually discusses the real issues.
You know, I was going to do a point by point on this, but I realized that all of this had been addressed in previous threads on the subject, and that your ignorance simply can’t be fought…it has to be endured. Plus, unsurprisingly, this is in the Pit, so obviously a serious discussion isn’t what the OP or you are looking for, instead you just want to rant and toss off what you probably felt was a bang on list of numbers you pulled out of your ass. Basically, all of your post here is complete and total horseshit, without any semblance to reality with the possible exception being about the waste issue. That’s definitely an issue, but it’s more an issue because frankly the anti-nuke idiots, such as yourself, MAKE it an issue. We’ve had the ability to centrally store nuclear waste for quite a while now…well, let me caveat that. We COULD have had that ability with Yucca Mountain, but, sadly, the anti-nukes have prevented it from becoming operational, after spending literally 10’s of billions of dollars. And that’s really the story on nuclear. Billions spent, often fruitlessly, as the anti-nuclear folks will swoop in, delay, up the costs, and in many cases ‘win’ the day and prevent the project from being completed. And then sit back and yammer about how much nuclear energy costs. 
Fucking catch-22.
The reality, of course, is that nuclear isn’t a lot more expensive than anything else, exception coal (and only if we don’t take into account coals impacts and costs, such as global warming). The French have managed quite easily to produce more than 70% of their electrical needs using the things…hell, they are selling energy to Germany who is also on a kick to get rid of their reactors (and, hilariously, has to buy energy because of the gap it creates in their own needs, and buy it from folks who use coal or nuclear to produce it for them). The Chinese are building a bunch more of the things. But not here in the US…we haven’t built a new reactor in decades, and haven’t seriously looked into building the new generation of reactors that are available (if we ever do figure out that the reality is coal/natural gas or nuclear for the bulk of our electricity we will have to bring in folks from other countries to build them for us).