Future of Open Source "Firefox and Thunderbird"

Okay guys, I am now a Firefox addict. I love this thing way better than I ever did explorer. The only thing that I miss is the fact that I can use the highlight function of the google toolbar, but other than that, I think its great.

I think the quality of these two products speak for themselves. They are easily on the same level or better than Internet Explorer. The question I have is this: Is this just an anomoly in the whole open source movement, or is it a trend towards much more refined products that could compete with what’s going on in Redmond.

I don’t know how to include Linux in this. The only way I can imagine Linux ever replacing Windows is if the difference (outward appearance at least) is very subtle. If you could run Windows software easily, or have equally high quality software available. I have used Star Office before, and I didn’t think it was anything near Office XP. But then again, I had used Mozilla when it came out and I was equally unimpressed.

Another important question. It seems like the problem of security is becoming greater each year. Viruses and other hijacks are becoming much more commonplace. Could this eventually lead to a situation where an operating system with proprietary code is unfeasable?

I am just saying that I am very amazed by the quality of these two products, and I am wondering if it is something I can expect more of from the open-source community.

Well, I use Firefox for my web browsing, Openoffice for my word processing, and the GIMP for my image editing, and I find these products to be more than satisfactory substitutes for the “standard” software, and in the case of Firefox, superior to it. And, GIMP and Openoffice are both smaller, simpler, and more usable, in my opinion, than Photoshop and Office (especially in the more recent versions of the latter programs), even if they are not entirely as powerful. I think open source software has much to offer beyond a few unique efforts and it is certainly a threat for big companies like Microsoft.

As to this statement:

I don’t use Linux, but I doubt that the quality of software is an issue in most cases. (The only significant exception that I can think of is games.) In my view the only thing keeping Windows on top is inertia.

For most general use - email, web browsing, editing pictures, word processing, and such, if you sat any non competely stupid person in front of a modern Linux system, they could use it. I installed Mandrake on my 70 year old Grandmother’s system (after getting tired of having to fix spyware/virus related issues) and it took her about 10 minutes to learn how to switch over. For example, for Office work you might want to try OpenOffice.org. After using it, I prefer to Office XP - for one thing, unlike MS word processors, it has never crashed on me, losing a document. And it handles older Microsoft .doc files (say from Word '97) better than MS’s newer versions of Word. YMMV :wink:

The only reason I boot into Windows is Games - hopefully Linux game software will improve, so I can ditch Windows entirely. Already, I can play UT2004, Quake3, and Neverwinter Nights on my Linux Boxen (and Doom3 will be available too), but this is one area where Linux does need to improve on.

I do agree that Microsoft really needs to fix its security problems - now, some will say MS gets to most virus/spyware because it is the most common; but in reality that is only partially the case. A lot of MS’s security problems are due to a myriad of poor design choices on their part - for example, almost every Windows box I have seen in running as an Adminstrator, where malware can do more damage, rather than in limited access accounts, where it can do less. Furthermore, the limited access accounts are not that good - many programs won’t run under them, and the limited accounts can still do a fair bit of damage to everything else.

In contrast, almost every Linux distro strongly discourages running in root(the Unix world equivlant of a MS Admin account) and the user accounts are generally better separated from everything else. Note, this isn’t a proprietary vs. open-source issue here - Mac OSX(though built on an OS core, it has enough propreitary stuff for the argument) also keeps most people from running in root when they don’t need too. Generally, both Linux and Mac OSX don’t do the stupid things(running at root/admin is just one issue) that MS has set to default, which is one big reason why the don’t have security problems.

Now MS does seem to be doing quite a bit to beef up security for Windows XP service pack 2 - they are beefing up the built in firewall, and turning it on by default, for one example. Still, as someone who builds his own computers(and actually sees how much Windows cost), IF Linux can get more games ported to it, I would ditch Windows entirely for my next computer build. And even without the games, at the rate Linux is progressing, for a basic websurfing/wordbrowsing/ect machine, unless MS does some completely totally awesome stuff when Longhorn comes out, any computers I build for those purposes for friends/family will likely get a Linux install in them; if MS wants to compete with free on the long term they are going to need a much better product.

My opinion is that Firefox’s quality is not so much an anomaly of any sort, it’s more a reflection of how stunningly neglected IE development has been. Its functionality hasn’t significantly advanced in years, simply because there’s no incentive for MS to do so. It’s ubiquitous, and most people simply can’t be bothered to find an alternative or don’t know one exists. Firefox (and Opera) succeed because they set out to fundamentally improve the browsing experience; they’ve got clearly defined goals and don’t take a “kitchen sink” approach (unlike Mozilla). These are the hallmarks of a decent software project, be it open source or not (Opera’s not). By contrast, IE is just a rectangle. It is the absolute bare minimum required for browsing the web (graphically, for all you lynx fans). You could argue that MS’s monopoly of the browser market has hurt it more than anything else, as it’s almost single-handedly responsible for their reputation for poor security (in concert with Outlook Express, that is). At a WAG I would say it’s probably the MS product that people spend most time using, and it’s truly poor. That it still holds a 94% market share says a lot about the inertia of the average computer user, though.

I’ve never been completely convinced by the argument that open source necessarily entails better security; it’s too glib to assume that a thousands of hungry programmers are scouring the open source world’s code for security flaws. Speaking as a programmer, even had I the inclination to police software in such a manner, the level of application required to bug-hunt in this manner is significantly more than most people have time for. Once publicised, holes get patches written quicker, but the task of verifying the fixes and distributing them is no simpler for an OSS project than for a traditional one. Additionally, the whole area is somewhat clouded by MS, to whom everyone looks for a comparison when considering closed source. They’ve had significant security problems, but more due to institutional attitude errors than any intrinsic property of closed source development. Most of our Windows security programs (Symantec, Zone Alarm, Sygate…) are closed source, and the world at large doesn’t tend to perceive a problem with that. I believe the procedures your development team runs, and the attitude you take to fixing problems, are far more important than the licence on your code.

Star/Open Office is another matter again, and has problems of its own that I don’t think relate to its open source nature. I think its main problem is that it attempts too much to simply re-implement Office, warts’n’all. Certainly, it needs to be inter-operable to stand a chance (my father just switched his company over to it, having got sick of the Office licence fees), but it would have been nice if it had tried to genuinely distinguish itself in some manner, rather than simply measure itself against Office as a yardstick. Of course, it’s very easy for me to say this, and developing an office suite is no mean feat. Also, I haven’t used it in a while, so my perception of it as a free-but-slightly-worse version of Office is out of date. The general approach, however, I think is still wrong. I’d like to see something attack individual Office applications, rather than attempt the whole shebang. Outlook is IMO a fairly high-quality product, and it’d take something quite nifty to get me to switch (Opera’s database-driven mail client almost managed it but was too buggy). Word, on the other hand, is a dreadful product, and is ripe for a really concerted effort to implement a better competitor. Divide and conquer, people! Are you geeks or not? :wink:

Anyway, to answer your question; yes, you can certainly expect more from OSS, and even if you don’t use it you can expect to see benefits. I don’t believe it has any intrinsic killer advantages that will see the death of proprietary software, but I do believe that it forces proprietary developers like Microsoft to compete in areas that they would otherwise ignore. So in that way, the competition increases the quality of everyone’s software, whether you never so much as touch a Linux box.

Good news, you can get that back with the Mozilla Googlebar
http://googlebar.mozdev.org/
note the separate installer for Firefox 0.8.0 + 0.9 Version

I like the comment by Dead Badger that Firefox’s greatness is not a sign of how good open source is, but how bad IE is. I use Opera at home, and Firefox is nice and all for a free browser, but I’m not in any hurry to switch at home. At work I’ve definitely switched.

I don’t think open source software can continue to compete indefinitely with people paid to do similar work. Maybe I don’t understand the “paradigm”, maybe I’m sucking Bill Gates’ dick, who knows. I am very glad for it, and it will continue to grow until a company like Microsoft is forced, through competition no lawsuit can bring, to create a genuinely good product.

I see two paths for the future. One is that open source work grows until large companies offer packages that are really, truly excellent. We’re back to specialty software, I think, where individual users don’t have the functions that businesses do (look at C++ compilers, for example, and how cost rises with increased functions). This, IMO, is a good thing. It keeps the product I buy clean and loaded with features I’m likely to use, rather than trying to cram everything in and not successfully getting any of it in. I can’t believe anyone pays for MS Office, to tell you the truth. It is garbage.

The second path is that the open source movement gets the attention it deserves and crumples under the weight. Frankly, if so many people wanted to work for little or no pay, we’d have a hell of a lot more communes than we do. I don’t think open source will ever be viable enough or popular enough to do anything but spur better software from traditional companies. IMO, that’s a great thing. For those of us who don’t need bells and whistles, open source software is excellent. For those of us who do, that avenue will still be open, and hopefully in a much more satisfactory way than we have right now.

*Slight Hijack *
The only thing keeping some of us from using Linux is that WACOM doesn’t have decent tablet drivers for them yet. I’m not ready to give up half of my computer’s functionality. But since this one came with Tablet OS, I stick with it. All of the computers I have built have open source software for one main reason. Cost. Students are poor. This kept me from playing some games, but I was able to be a server for dorm games and play on other people’s machines.

Windows costs money?

cough

Seriously, open source just needs that “killer app.” Right now, the main benefit to Linux systems is security, which doesn’t bother most people (Windows + free AV + free firewall + intelligent use = secure enough).

The only reason I’m not running Linux - OK, one of the reasons (other one being CoH, I know way too many people who do most stuff in Linux but have Win installed for games anyway) - is that it simply won’t run on my PC. I’ve tried different builds etc, I’ve asked Linux geeks from Norway to Korea, and it just won’t start. :-p I would happily run Linux on my laptop, if I thought there was a reason to.

If I was shopping for a new laptop and it came with Linux, I would consider buying it just as much as I would a Windows laptop. That option isn’t available almost all the time. THAT is where you need to get them - OEM.

Linux will hit the big time as soon as you can install and use it as easily as Windows.

Or as soon as there are no bootlegs available… :slight_smile:

WINE 4 runs City of Heroes, actually…

I’d say that the Mozilla suite* is the first piece of user-oriented open source software that is a clear winner over its closed source counterpart. This is true to the point that I feel it is necessary to install Mozilla on any machine I use; Internet Explorer is NOT adequate for web browsing anymore as far as I’m concerned. I can really see this being open source’s niche. I don’t believe that in ten years there will be such a perceived competition between open and closed source software as separate factions. I think that open source software will just dissolve into the market and consumers won’t really know the difference except it is cheaper (and that might not even always be true.)

On the subject of OpenOffice.org, I see it as a cheap, small, simple replacement for my rather limited word processing and spreadsheet needs. Since my needs are so limited, I don’t really know how it holds up in the long run.

As for Linux, well, it serves its purpose in many ways. I don’t see it replacing Windows in the market ever, really. I use it for a lot of stuff, but I find it necessary to keep Windows around, too, and I don’t play games. Honestly, the Mozilla of Linux distros (being secure, good, and user friendly enough for everyone) hasn’t come around yet, and I don’t see that any of the current distros even have the potential.

Sorry, I hit submit too early.

I meant to discuss Longhorn a little. I really think that after Longhorn Microsoft will problem continue to dominate the desktop, business as usual. But there is a small chance that things could really change with Longhorn. Maybe security and bloat concerns will be gone and Longhorn will be the end-all-be-all of operating systems. On the other hand, maybe by then there will be a suitable desktop Linux distro, and Longhorn will be so bad that Linux will have a chance to capture a major portion of the market share. Any major change would be interesting and I’m sort of excited at seeing how the release of Longhorn changes things in the desktop world.

  • I use the Mozilla Browser from the Mozilla Seamonkey Suite for several minor reasons. I started on the suite, then switched to Phoenix when it matured, then switched back when Firefox 0.8 came out. The suite doesn’t have the speed issues it once had, and I hate Firefox’s download manager with a passion. IMO, that one annoying feature is enough to ruin the entire browsing experience.