If the article Barbarian linked to is the one I’m thinking of (it’s behind the wall and I don’t want to log in right now because this computer is slow enough without having try to load all the nytimes ads) then there’s an interesting wrinkle. The petroleum companies say that installing the temperature regulators is too expensive and would totally destroy their profit margins and it doesn’t really make that much difference anyway. Except in places where it gets really cold and the customer gets more bang for their buck. It turns out that they have had regulators in place for years there. :rolleyes:
If I remember correctly the difference is something like 1%, which is somewhere between 3.5 and 3.8 cents per gallon surcharge around here. It doesn’t sound like much, but it adds up.
If they had the regulators on the pump, wouldn’t they just charge somewhere between 3.5 and 3.8 cents more per gallon than they do now? Plus an additional .5 to 1 cents per gallon to “pay for the regulators that will save you money!”.
Last month on NPR they had someone talking about this. What i got from the story was not all pumps in the US are temperature compensated. The Weights and Measures wants to make it a requirement but it did not seem to be so to date. The argument against it was the fuel prices would rise significantly more if stations were required to go that route and consumers are better off accepting the negligible loss to thermal activity.
Perhaps we should switch to selling fuel by weight. Isn’t that what they do for aircraft and ships?
In any case, any firm data on the underground tanks? I’m having a very expensive geothermal climate control system put in on the basis that (here in my parts) the temperature 6 feet under ground is relatively constant all year round. The only temperature difference I’d expect to see is as a result of dumping the fuel from the truck into the tank.
FWIW, modern fuel tanks are virtually air tight (err, evaporative emissions tight). Even with the fuel cap off. Heck, lots of the new Fords won’t even have fuel caps. So, who cares if your tank is half empty? The fuel vapor will only get collected in the carbon filter and eventually reconcentrated into a liquid. Perhaps there’s a little loss when you insert the pump nozzle and the weight of the fuel opens the anti-rollover valve in the filler next.
Which Fords don’t have gas caps? None that I have seen.
The vapors are collected by the charcoal canister, but they are not reconverted back to a liquid, rather they are drawn through the engine and burned as a vapor.
I can tell you from experience that buying gas in the morning or at night really does not make a difference to the temp of the fuel. I have pumped thousands and thousands of gallons of gas in the morning, at noon and night. I have pumped gas in the summer and winter. (I started in this business as a pump jockey) Guess what? In the summer the fuel cools the pump handle, as the under ground tank is cooler than the air, in the winter, the fuel warms the handle as the fuel is warmer than the ground.
Ten, twelve feet down there is very little temp change. Now if we were talking about an area with a deep frost line or permafrost, that might be different, but for a good chunk of the US I doubt that the temp of the ground varies by more than a degree or two all year.
SOME, but not ALL of the “facts” in the OP are bullshit.
Only partly true. In most of the US, the ground temp from 4 feet on down is consistent all year around. However, if you dump 1000 gallons of gasoline from a truck that’s been on the road at 90°F for 6 hours into the underground tank, it will take hours to cool to the ground temp of 56°F (?). According to a WTHR news story, volume is temperature compensated at every step of the journey from well to gas station, but there is no compensation when you pump into your car.
Only California pumps have vapor return. They have a fat flexi hose surrounding the nozzle pipe. In other states, the vapor simply vents into the air. The rate of flow does not affect the rate of evaporation. Pouring cool fuel into a hot half tank may slow down the evaporation a tiny bit, but not enough to matter.
No. I think rather slowly, myself, but even I can imagine faster than gasoline can evaporate. Put an ounce of water and an ounce of gasoline in two cups. You’ll get bored long before the gasoline is gone.
I won’t even bother to point and laugh at the “internal floating roof.”
."
There might be a little truth in this. Every big storage tank gathers dirt and water somehow. Most pumps have a filter right there next to the nozzle, but it won’t stop water. Without taking it apart, can you tell there’s really a filter in there? No. The churning of the underground tank might not settle out for 30 minutes or so. Will you ask when the last tanker came in?
Now, here’s a couple more things. In my state, and probably yours, budgets are tight, and there’s maybe four guys driving around with calibrated tanks, checking all the gas pumps in Indiana. If they really hustle, they might hit every pump in the state twice a year.
If it’s really, really cold out, and the pump seems to be taking a long time to pump a gallon, shut it off and go somewhere else. Some call it vapor lock, but that’s probably not the right term. You’ll end up paying too much for whatever you pump.
Most (all?) of the pumps here in SE Wisconsin have a vapor recovery system as well, with the fat flexi hose you describe, which made it a total PITA to fill my 64’s (Olds F-85 and Ford Falcon), which filled up under the license plate in the back and the nozzle couldn’t get deep enough in to work properly.
Not true. I’ve never been to California but I’ve seen the vapor return hoses. It may not be required anywhere but California, but I believe I saw them in Texas. This was at least 15 years ago and I remember it didn’t work very well. The nozzle kept kicking off like the tank was full the whole time.
I think I said coming up. Consider a certain luxury marque that will launch a new vehicle in the next year, based on one of the platforms from your ex-side of the business. It’ll be the first. Lots of others are due to follow, include (I think) some of the refreshes of some of the current models.
Upon review for not spilling any types of trade secrets, it looks like the GT40 already used a capless filler.
California may be the only state which has mandated vapor recovery for all pumps, but any area which fails to meet EPA ozone standards may, after negotiation with the state, be required to implement vapor recovery nozzles. For example, here is a map of the counties in EPA’s New England region which are required to implement Stage II Vapor Recovery Control. From personal experience, Philadelphia and the surrounding suburbs also use these systems, and just a couple weeks ago thirteen area stations reached an agreement with the EPA to pay civil penalties because of Clean Air Act violations including failure to use proper vapor return systems.
I know there’s a gas station near Santa Barbara that doesn’t have the annoying springy nozzle things, but it may be the station near Solvang that may technically be on an indian reservation. I do know that I hate those damned things. I don’t have a car but I do have a motorcycle, and I have to hold the stupid spring loaded thing back while I pump the gas. Some of those springs are strong and it is the suck.
The ‘floating lids’ are in the big round above ground storage tanks at refineries and pipeline pumping stations. That is what the OP stated, he did not say they were in the itty bitty tanks under the local fuel ripoff place. ( to him, the BIG tanks at work are storage tanks and then he referenced the local gas stations) sheesh … So all the snark about the floating lids only shows that people do not read what is there but what they think is there. (I’m guilty of that too… ) Just sayin…
Aviation fuel is sold by the gallon. A lot of newer planes and the ‘Big Iron’ measure it onboard and request it loaded by the pound for weight and balance reasons. ( airplanes care not about gallons, but about pounds…) (pilots think of fuel as time, not pounds or gallons) American Airlines is not paying for it by the pound but by the gallon. (In predetermined lots at predetermined prices.)
The best way to save money on fuel without changing vehicles or engines it to ‘get your foot out of it’ and think ahead.
I really don’t see much problem with point one. When Excise is paid on fuel, it is always calculated at 15 degrees- there are numeric tables (and of course computers now) to establish the correct amount.
I left a bucket of gasoline in my driveway (I accidentally put gas in my friend’s diesel car, so had to drain the entire tank to flush it, but saved a bit to fill my lawnmower - then forgot) and it took about two weeks to evaporate.
None that I have seen.