[QUOTE=spoke-]
To bring back the bug analogy, it’s like someone who loves eating grasshoppers insisting that there will be no justice until we live in a world where everyone thinks bugs are delicious.
[/QUOTE]
No, no it’s not. Since we’re doing analogies, I think it’s like going to the doctor and saying “doc, there’s something wrong with my balls.” Then the doctor goes, “ew, gross! I’m not touching your balls! That’s like eating dog shit! Barf, barf, barf!”
I’d expect my straight male doctor to be a bit more mature and professional than that. Most actors are probably expected to be a bit more mature and professional too. Or they don’t go into acting.
[QUOTE=spoke-]
Oh, come down off your cross, Otto. I don’t give a damn if you kiss a man. Really, I don’t. It’s just not for me. If you don’t find that “acceptable,” then your offense-o-meter is set way too high.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not up on the cross, thanks. I’m responding to someone who analogized kissing a man to eating dog shit. And no, I don’t find that acceptable and no, I am not going to stop saying that equating kissing another man to eating dog shit is not acceptable. And if you want to dismiss my finding the comparison of a man kissing another man to eating dog shit unacceptable as an overly-high “offense-o-meter” then that says more about you than it does about me. There’s a huge difference between “it’s not for me” and “the very thought of it fills me with revulsion.”
So do you eat grasshoppers, Otto? (I presume not.) Would you find the idea distasteful? Even repulsive?
But that doesn’t mean you would hate or condemn someone who does enjoy grasshoppers, does it? You’re OK with them doing that, aren’t you? After all, there’s nothing really wrong with eating bugs. They’re perfectly nutritious. You just find them sort of gross.
Wouldn’t you think it silly, though, if a grasshopper-eater got angry at you for expressing revulsion at eating bugs?
Again, there’s a big difference between “it’s not for me” and “the very thought of it fills me with revulsion” and if you don’t, or can’t, or won’t understand that then clearly there’s little point in our continuing to butt heads about it.
I don’t mean to “but heads” with you. I’m just trying to get you to understand my perspective.
I guess I’m saying you just can’t dictate what people do or don’t find personally repulsive. It’s a matter of personal taste, which is not subject to fiat.
[QUOTE=spoke-]
I guess I’m saying you just can’t dictate what people do or don’t find personally repulsive. It’s a matter of personal taste, which is not subject to fiat.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not suggesting that I can dictate what someone does or doesn’t find repulsive. I never even intimated that I could. But neither can you dictate that I not find the notion of being presonally repulsed at the thought to be personally repulsive.
It may not be unusual for straights to feel revulsion at the thought, but that doesn’t make it acceptable. Not to pull out an overplayed analogy, but if someone came in here and posted something like “I don’t mind if Jews like kissing other Jews, but I’m a Gentile and the idea of kissing a Jew puts me in mind of eating dog shit” there would be no end to the Pitting.
[/QUOTE]
So where does the continuum end? Am I allowed to feel revulsion at the thought of doing more than kissing another guy? Is it acceptable for me to repulsed by the thought of giving another man head? Or receiving anal sex? Or am I supposed to be perfectly comfortable with all these thoughts? Or am I “a little messed up” therefore?
I don’t think the OP meant any offense in his statements and his comparisons to eating dog shit and bugs were rather inelegant and unfortunate. But I don’t think it’s “unacceptable” for heterosexual men to feel squeamish at the thought of kissing another man. Like I said, I feel that way about many women, too. If I’m not attracted to the person, I do not want to kiss them at all.
Getting back to the original subject - I think the problem is that as a non-actor, it is hard to accept the fact that two people can kiss (Male/Femaie, Female/Female, Man/Man) even if they hate each other, but make it look real to an audience.
I was in a musical - the male and female stars of the show were at one time real-life lovers, but it ended very badly - yet, despite the fact that they loathed each other off-stage, anybody watching the show in the audience would think they were a cute couple in love. It is called acting.
Acting often requires people to do things they don’t normally do in real life - could you strip totally nude on stage in front of over a thousand strangers? I knew an actress and actor who did that on Broadway, 8 shows a week. She was a prude in real life and the guy was actually a very shy person - but they did it because that was part of the role they were playing.
It is equally difficult to play the part of a racist, or play the part of a pedophile, or to play the part of a Nazi or any number of roles that go against your real-life persona - but that is the job of a true actor.
But the main crux of your question - showing affection on stage, or on film, to a person you are not sexually attracted to - are you telling me every person you have ever hugged and kissed in your entire life was sexually attractive to you? You never once gave a quick kiss to grandma or Aunt Gertrude?
Although I would be curious to know if actors playing roles in different sexual orientations have some kind of self-psychological trick up their sleeve, I would imagine most people who have that level of training and professional experience probably don’t let it get to them.
Pretending to be straight probably comes naturally to gay actors–they’ve been doing it for all of their lives, or at the very least the early part of it. I mean, for Rock Hudson, denying his sexual orientation was what he did every minute of every day anyway–the only difference was when he was acting he got paid for it directly. It’s a little different for Portia de Rossi, sure–she lives in a world where she can openly frolic around a mansion with Ellen DeGeneres and such–but you can’t tell me she didn’t spend years pretending to be straight.
[QUOTE=erie774]
I do not assume that kissing a man is repulsive to other people, only to myself. I have said that repeatedly throughout this thread. If you like kissing other men, have a great time!
[/QUOTE]
You see, there’s your problem. You can’t imagine any middle ground between being “repulsed” by kissing other men and “liking” to kiss other men. But there is a middle ground. And in that middle ground are probably most actors. They may not be attracted to the person they are kissing, or even the gender, but neither are they repulsed by the idea.
First, part of that repulsion to kiss others (of whichever gender) is societal and therefore artificial. In Spain two women walking arm-in-arm on the street are assumed to be friends or relatives; people from other countries have been known to see that and ask “why are there so many lesbians in Spain?” :smack: What’s your own reaction to two women walking arm-in-arm, or the taller one draping an arm over the shorter one’s shoulders while the shorter one drapes an arm around the taller one’s waist?
Second, the immense majority of (US movie and TV) actors seem to kiss only on the lips. You see two people who are supposed to have been married for several years having something that’s supposed to be a passionate kiss and it’s evident their lips are closed. You see two people who are in the middle of a torrid romance, in theory they’re sticking their tongues into each other’s throat, but it’s evident their lips are closed. I’d be more worried about the lousy acting that represents than about whether I happen to like my co-kisser… any work I do, I want to do it right!
[QUOTE=Otto]
It may not be unusual for straights to feel revulsion at the thought, but that doesn’t make it acceptable.
[/quote]
Wow. You’ve become a bit of what you hate, haven’t you? That revulsion of which you do not approve is akin to a motor response, like gagging. Haven’t you ever simultaneously disliked something yourself very intensely while not minding whether others did or not?
And hopefully, that’s where they’d do it.
I think that’s a good point. It may well be that, in the context of being an actor, I’d have a whole different mental approach to the idea. I’ve always been a bit suspicious of the efficacy of acting lessons, just on the principle that I’ve thought acting to be more of a natural talent than a learned one. But maybe just this sort of thing is what those classes are all about — learning to act far outside your normal self.
[QUOTE=Otto]
Not to hijack completely, but I have read that the kiss is not in the original play. Were you working from the original script or were there alterations made following the film?
[/QUOTE]
It was indeed after the film came out, but there was no indication that it had been changed from the original script. Honestly, I don’t know.
[QUOTE=Otto]
Um…no?
[/QUOTE]
You don’t “approve” of a man being turned off by kissing men. How does it differ from people who don’t approve of a man being turned on by kissing men?
“Turned off” is qualitatively different from “revolted.” I’m turned off by the notion of kissing a woman but have somehow made it this far into my adult life without feeling revolted by it, or for that matter feeling the need to shore up my homosexual cred by loudly proclaiming that, even though you may like kissing girls, the idea of my doing it makes me want to barf. Yet every time the topic surfaces here, we get a parade of straight boys who feel the need to explain just how gross the idea of locking lips with another dude is to them. And yes, I do contend that having that level of revulsion at the idea of macking a guy indicates a problem in the person so revolted. I don’t agree that it’s “natural” and IMHO they need to get over it, and if they can’t get over it they need to shut the hell up about it. I look at it exactly the same way I do as when people upon finding out that I’m a vegetarian feel compelled to speechify at length about how much they love eating flesh and how they could never give it up and how yummy-delicious meat is. If nothing else, it’s kinda fucking rude.
[QUOTE=levdrakon]
I didn’t say you claimed to speak on behalf of men. I was careful to quote the person who did.
As far as your uncle is concerned, why don’t you ask him how he dealt with it? I’m gay and kiss women on the lips all the time and doesn’t bother me one iota. In fact I like it. It’s a nice expression of friendship.
As far as sitting at Lover’s Point and making out for awhile, I’ve done that too. Didn’t like it. Didn’t throw up either. I just psyched myself into it and acted like I was into it. As others have said, it’s just another person with lips. And a tongue. But really if you’re going to play the role, then you just play the role. I didn’t pretend I was making out with a guy. I psyched myself into pretending I enjoyed making out with a gal.
[/QUOTE]
I asked my uncle about it when he came out. He wanted to know if I had any questions, I asked when he knew he was gay. He said he had always known. I asked if he had ever been with a woman. He said that he had gone on one date when he was about 18 and she wanted to make out. He tried kissing her and giving in to the feeling but it felt wrong to him. His exact words were, “It just didn’t feel natural. I thought I was going to throw up.” I said, OK. That was all I wanted to know. He was my uncle, I loved him and didn’t give a shit if he was gay, straight or a Martian. He was my uncle, my godfather and my friend.
I can’t ask him any more about because he died in 1986 of what was then called ARC (AIDS Related Complex). I still miss him and am sorry my wife and kids never got to meet him. He was a great, kind man.
[QUOTE=Otto]
If nothing else, it’s kinda fucking rude.
[/QUOTE]
Speaking of rude, would it be at all possible for you to take your issues with this to the Pit and stop crashing this guy’s Cafe thread? Pretty please? This is actually an interesting topic, and there are people who’d like to discuss it.
