"Gay high school" opens in New York... Whaddya think?

Great Debates
61

I’d just like to say before we get any further how insulting I find this. I would remind you that black people were not given a choice about segregation. It was a racist policy imposed from without, upon the entire black community, whether they wanted it or not.

It’s absurd to compare that to a tiny program, for the most severely at-risk Queer kids, that (for Gods’ sake) they have to choose to enter.

The program is not meant to be the justification of some particular educational theory. It will take years and years to bring the schools at large up to the point where all Queer kids will feel safe. And there is no reason to believe that work isn’t continuing just because this measure is in place. The kids who this program targets do not have the time to wait for the schools to accomodate them as they deserve. An imperfect system plus this, immediately, is better than a perfect system in thirty years with nothing in the meantime.

62

That’s nice, matt_mcl, but what I’m more interested in is the principle of the thing. For lovers, perhaps absence makes the heart grow fonder. But what I would like to know is what mechanism for successful and ultimately safe integration exists after we start a segregationist policy?

63

jr8 said, “Wouldn’t it save time and money to just have a special school for the bullies?”

They do. It’s called Reform School. It takes a while to get there, but they don’t have a high drop out rate. :wink:

64

Magiver said, “By segregating someone, for any reason, you are highlighting that person as being different. That mindset is bad, both for the person, and society at large. The school system is creating a victim mentality for the student. This is in a society which is, IMO, becoming more tolerant of everything human.”

But they ARE different!!! The object is not to make everyone appear the same. The object is to teach people to be tolerant of,and embrace, our differences! Until we do that, we have to protect these kids from serious emotional and physical harm. We have to let them know that they don’t have to just buck up and take the shit they’re dealt every day.

65

Man that is REALLY ghey.

LOL I wonder if all the teachers have to be gay too. How’d you like to get stuck doing your student teaching there!

Man what is this country coming too. It will be interesting to see how this model works, or if the deviant sexual behavior that is a higher % among sexual disorder sufferers (homosexuals, transsexuals, transgenders, etc. ) shows its ugly face. Maybe it will be a positive example… shrug – I guess we’ll find out. I would put my money on the fact that all the graduates will not understand how to interact with normal society after being socialized by a bunch of gays. It sounds more like a way for the extreme minority to brew a bunch of activist brethren – oh boy can’t wait.

I still think it’s a really bad idea for them as a group to separate themselves even further from the rest of society. The whole problem with homosexual, and other strange sexual behavior, is activist members of their corresponding groups seem to create a culture out of their behavior, which I don’t understand. I don’t think the rest of society as a whole really has a problem with gay people. What they have a problem with is the gay culture you see plastered all over the place, people in parades dressed in bunny suit, drag kings n queens, and the “in your face” attitude that the minority among them use to erode societies tolerance even further.

Why the hell can’t they just get over the fact that being gay DOES NOT MAKE THEM SPECIAL, AND THEY SHOULD JUST KEEP IT PRIVATE ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER STRANGE SEXUAL FETTISHES PEOPLE HAVE?! I don’t get it. They don’t deserve special rights, special privileges, or any attention whatsoever.

On a more serious note, I saw a TLC show on hermaphrodites the other night, and all I can say is man, I though gays were confused. That would be a really emotional and stressful deformation to live with. As opposed to a homosexual who still has a conscious choice, these people can’t really choose in many cases because they have both male and female organs. So they literally have unbalanced hormone levels. Interesting and depressing story.

Being gay shouldn’t be a culture / lifestyle. It should be a privite issue among adults kept in the privacy of their home. The fact that people think its a culture is what creates the separation from society. You can be gay, and remain associated normally with the rest of society. I know personally a couple people who are, and do, and are very nice people. They don’t walk around with a big sign on themselves that says “HEY IM GAY” either.

I watch that show on HBO - “6 feet under”- and one of the sub plots is one of the sons of the family who is gay. He acts just like everyone else, and the relationships he has with other people are just like a relationship two heterosexual people would have for the most part. It has its moments that go a bit far, and I still can’t watch two guys kiss , but I think it is a positive example of homosexual people. Most shows display gay people as promiscuous, and acting like clowns.

66

No. Nononono. Step in exactly the wrong direction. For a private school, great. But this sticks in my craw as much as trying to make a straight high school. I wonder what is so special about this school that whatever antidiscrimination policies wouldn’t work in any other high school?

67

Correct, however my point was that - I just don’t want additional tax revenue that will come from my pocket to go to build additional public schools when there are already plenty of desks still available at the current public schools. The city is already in debt. There is no need to segregate school children because some of them that are gay get picked on. Just as there is no need to segregate them because some of them have speech impediments and get picked on.

Building and running a brand new Gay Public School is going to cost far more than sending the kids to pre-existing public schools. Money that comes from taxes. Taxes that will come from the income of resident New Yorkers. The income that a father could instead spend on his own children. So YES, this will mean that people will be forced to spend additional money on other people’s kids.

Now if you are suggesting that this new school will have NO start-up cost, or any additional cost for that matter. And that the funding per student will be the same as if they went to the regular public school, then I’d love to see the books. Because last time I checked buildings cost a lot of money to maintain in New York City. Staffing them, heating them, and transportation to and from them isn’t free. (Unless maybe there is some magic fairy dust that will alleviate these costs)

Public funding for support of this school implies that gay kids being picked on is a worse injustice than if a kid is picked on for any other reason. Which is bull. And if you want to cite violence against gays as a problem, I got news for you, there have been many school fights that have resulted in violence or death that were started for reasons other than one kid being homosexual. Violence is not limited to gay students.**

Now, If the bleeding heart pathos appeal was successful in convincing you that gay kids need more help than other ostracized groups. Fine, but put YOUR MONEY where your mouth is, and support charities willing to pay for it. And if you want to use the money set aside for a particular gay child’s public education to help lower the cost of sending that kid to a PRIVATE Gay School. - Well, then welcome to school vouchers. But please allow other families and other charities the same options and privileges for schools of their choice.
http://www.pediatrics.wisc.edu/streaming/03282002/03282002.pdf
** School Associated Violent Death
Frequently cited motives
28% interpersonal dispute/revenge
24% gang related
15% dispute over romantic relationship
10% no identifiable motive

68

I must have missed the story about the kid with acne being beaten and tied to fence posts.

Musta just slipped right by me!

Is this school a good idea? I don’t know. But to act as if gay kids are just “picked on” seems either ignorant or malicious.

Julie

69

{sigh}

Let’s go to the source, shall we? From The Hetrick-Martin Institute’s website:

Regarding the Harvey Milk School:

And here is information on applying:

Enrollment eligibility includes:

Now, instead of wild conjecture and inaccurate guesses, maybe some of these facts might be useful in this debate?

Esprix

70

So if straights wanted to set up a separate school, which was not “gay-friendly”, that would be OK with you because the homophobic straights chose to attend that school?

I imagine it will be at least as long until we completely eliminate racism as well - in the meantime, we need to set up separate schools so black kids can feel safe.

But equal, of course.

Regards,
Shodan

71

I am not endorsing the position of anyone else here, but my own position, in line with my previous post, is that it depends on practical considerations. In the case of Black kids, there is a more serious segregation issue. For many black kids, most or all of their relatives, friends and neighbors are also black. Attending an integrated school offers them what may be a rare chance to associate with White people - something that may well come in useful in later life when they will likely have to. By contrast, few if any gay kids are living in an all-gay world - they have plenty of exposure to straights as it is. The school is just one specific aspect of their lives.

72

Another big problem - homosexuals focus on their sexuality. For many there is little more important in their life than being gay. It is much more important than “just one specific aspect of their lives.”

Gay students should remain in school with non-gay students so that their sexuality is NOT a focus on their lives, especially early in their lives. The irony is, homosexuals constanty blab about being singled out, yet they continually do so on their own by bringing attention to their sexuality even more than a heterosexual does.

I don’t frankly see how its even constitutional, and I don’t see how they can force people to pay for it with their own tax dollars, if they have a moral problem with a gay lifestyle. People have every right to NOT want to accept gay behavior if that’s what society as a whole decides.

Do fat kids need their own schools too?

What about ugly kids? Ugly kids get beat up just as much and any gay child. There is absolutely no supporting evidence that says gay children are any more made fun of than any other kid with some trait that is unacceptable by the norm.

I’d be willing to bet 50% of what is taught at this gay school is going to be about gay issues which will not prepare them for a non-gay NORMAL world.

LIBERALS :smack: :smack:

73

It’s much easier said than done. I can understand someone advocating change in the mentality of bullies, but I can’t understand someone saying that you should merely “deal with it”. One of the best ways to deal with it for them could well be to separate themselves from the problem. It’s the same basic idea of fleeing a country when things get bad. I don’t think it’s the best thing to do, because people need to stay and fight, but it is not my place to say that anyone should have to suffer through victimization, ever. People have different ways of “dealing” with things. I can’t say that subjecting yourself to it is necessarily the best response.

They are already highlighted as different for being homosexuals. Obviously if people treated them equally with the same respect and admiration that any straight kid would receive, it wouldn’t be an issue at all. But until that day comes, they WILL be seen as different. The “victim mentality” thing is crap if the people have been victimized. We are not becoming more tolerant. People are just more hidden about their prejudices.

The tax dollars argument holds no merit with me when we are still giving millions and millions of dollars to the pentagon every hour. Gay people are singled out as victims by society already, not by people attempting to offer tham an outlet. If we’re going to spend a lot of money on taxes, there are few things that I think would be better to spend it on than education.

74

Well, it isn’t “tied to fence posts” but -

20 October 2002: 15-year-old Greg Doucette was so tormented about his acne by bullies at Notre Dame Secondary School in the Heart Lake district of north Brampton, Toronto, Canada, that he hanged himself in the basement of his home.

Yep, you missed this story and others like it. Why? Because no political action group would be able to benefit with increased donations and nationwide awareness by constantly parading it in front of you.

In case you missed it the first time:
** School Associated Violent Death **
Frequently cited motives
28% interpersonal dispute/revenge
24% gang related
15% dispute over romantic relationship
10% no identifiable motive

75

Errr… what is a “questioning youth”? Someone who isn’t sure they are gay or not?

76

I’m starting to get a little tired of the “fat and ugly kid getting teased” straw man. I have never heard of anyone being killed or tossed out of their homes for being fat or ugly. For the last time, we are not talking about hurt feelings, here. We are talking about youth protection.

This is an extension of the Harvey Milk School, which has been a school of last resort for many years, aimed queer teens in desperate circumstances. It’s about violence intervention, not segregation.

77

No, the homosexual does not make a conscious choice to be gay. We do not make a choice to be something that will cause a great deal of pain and suffering from many in society. We do not choose to be something that will get us attacked or spit on or killed. We do not choose something that may cause our friends and family members to shun us. We do not choose something that causes so much anger towards us that a fucking special school needs to be opened just so that we might have a chance at an education without fearing for our lives.

And what is confusing, is not that we are gay, but that so many people are threatened by the mere fact that we are attracted to members of the same sex.
I didn’t agree with this school at first, feeling that it doesn’t really solve the underlying problem. However, after reading this thread, I have changed my mind. Solving the underlying problem is still of absolute importance but I think we can agree that we are still a long way away from acheiving that goal. In the meantime, these students are in need of an education and the public system is failing them by not giving them a safe learning environment. This school will at least help them get the education that they deserve.

78

This cry baby stuff has got to go. You are making an argument based on the exception not the rule. As a whole gay children are not beaten and driven out of their homes. That is just proposterous. Does it happen? Yes, but segregating people based of the exception to the rule NEVER WORKS!

Why not go after the criminals, rather than hide the victums.’

Kids kill themselves all the time because of eating disorders and drug problems. Kids kill themselves because they have physical deformations and are constantly made fun of. Period, end of story. Is that any less tragic? Are we to have a special schools for every sort of socially challenged student? This is just ridiculous.

I would also like to know, out of all these gay kids that have been driven from school, how many of them throw their “gayness” onto everyone. I wonder how many of them wore some stupid outfit on gay pride day, or wear stupid T-shirts, or write offensive sexual thing with chalk on the sidewalk. Don’t tell me they don’t because I have seen obscene things drawn and written on sidewalks that are offensive to me. Don’t I have a right to be offended. Don’t I have a right not to look at homosexual art of two men having butt sex drawn very graphically by very talented artists. No wait, they want to take that right away from me. I don’t worry about it, because things like that are not the rule, and I don’t use that experience to assume all gay people are left wing activists throwing everything in my face. At any rate, many people over-react to things. People kill each other over shoes, drugs, girls, and even words, in the kinds of places this kind of gross hate crime against gays takes place. It is not common practice, and should not be used to legislate policy for society as a whole. :smack: It is just so illogical!
I still say people are not racist and discriminatory because of race, color, sexual preference to any significant degree in this day and age. It is all based on culuture. Black american culture, gay culture, and a few others actively separate themselves, and single out their group from the bulk of society. That is what brews predudice.

79

This cry baby stuff has got to go. You are making an argument based on the exception not the rule. As a whole gay children are not beaten and driven out of their homes. That is just preposterous. Does it happen? Yes, but segregating people based of the exception to the rule NEVER WORKS!

Why not go after the criminals, rather than hide the victims.’

Kids kill themselves all the time because of eating disorders and drug problems. Kids kill themselves because they have physical deformations and are constantly made fun of. Period, end of story. Is that any less tragic? Are we to have a special schools for every sort of socially challenged student? This is just ridiculous.

I would also like to know, out of all these gay kids that have been driven from school, how many of them throw their “gayness” onto everyone. I wonder how many of them wore some stupid outfit on gay pride day, or wear stupid T-shirts, or write offensive sexual thing with chalk on the sidewalk. Don’t tell me they don’t because I have seen obscene things drawn and written on sidewalks that are offensive to me. Don’t I have a right to be offended. Don’t I have a right not to look at homosexual art of two men having butt sex drawn very graphically by very talented artists. No wait, they want to take that right away from me. I don’t worry about it, because things like that are not the rule, and I don’t use that experience to assume all gay people are left wing activists throwing everything in my face. At any rate, many people over-react to things. People kill each other over shoes, drugs, girls, and even words, in the kinds of places this kind of gross hate crime against gays takes place. It is not common practice, and should not be used to legislate policy for society as a whole. :smack: It is just so illogical!
I still say people are not racist and discriminatory because of race, color, and sexual preference to any significant degree in this day and age. It is all based on culture. Black American culture, gay culture, and a few others actively separate themselves, and single out their group from the bulk of society. That is what brews prejudice.

Spelling corrected - I can’t edit for some reason since Im a new member.

80

You can’t edit at all unless you’re a moderator or administrator.