Gay Marriage a step closer?

I was watching CNN this morning, and they said that a New Jersey court decided to give visitation rights to a woman who raised two kids with her ex-partner (this term is ambiguous, is there a better one? ex-lesbian partner sounds like they’re still partners, but one’s not a lesbian anymore). They mentioned the usual objections about how this weakens the traditional family or whatever the line is.

Here’s the yahoo story http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000406/ts/life_lesbians_1.html .

My question is, is this a sign that gay marriages are coming? Is it even significant? I personally think that it’s a sign that some courts accept the concept that gay partnerships are legally similar to marriages in some aspects. Opinions?

waterj2 wrote:

If this were an arithmetic expression, the answer would be easy: use parentheses. Viz:

“(ex-lesbian) partner”

versus

“ex-(lesbian partner)”

I think it’s a sure sign of hell and damnation with fire and hail raining upon the earth. The dead shall rise and walk. Cats shall sleep with dogs. The seas will boil, the mountains fall and every living soul will be cast to the depths of hell to writhe in eternal torment…

…or you may simply believe that - it’s about damn time some of those nitwits on the bench had a constructive thought!

These cases has been going on for years, as gay men and lesbians are fully capable of producing children while still in denial about their orientation. There was an infamous case in Florida a few years ago where the mother lost her child because she was a lesbian, but there have been just as many where the gay parent won their rights.

Have you been following the civil union legislation in Vermont? Do you know about the court case in Hawaii? Have you ever heard of the Defense of Marriage Act?

Seems much has passed you by, but there are plenty of threads here to get you up to speed. :slight_smile:

Esprix


Ask the Gay Guy! (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy!)

I’ve been reading the threads dealing with the Vermont issue and all that. The story I heard this morning seemed to indicate that the court considered the union to be equivalent to marriage at least in some aspects. It sounded like a significant step had been taken by the courts toward allowing gay marriage. After all, it will be the courts (most likely) where the DOMA will be challenged.

There are a couple reasons that I consider this case relevant:

  1. New Jersey is more populous and “mainstream” than Hawaii or Vermont
  2. Following your theory (which is certainly a reasonable guess) that Vermont’s CU’s will be considered equivalent to marriage by another state, this sets a precedent in another state.
  3. It further erodes the idea that the courts are obliged to “defend” the traditional family.

The debate I wanted was about whether or not this ruling will do much to hasten the (IMHO)eventual legal acceptance of gay marriage.

Just because I haven’t been posting in the other gay threads doesn’t mean I haven’t been reading. Just that you and Otto and others seem to be doing a fine job of pointing out the absurdity of some people’s opinions.

The case didn’t deal at all with the legality of the relationship between the two women. It dealt with the relationship between the ex and the children. The court dismissed her request for joint custody but upheld visitation because as the court said she was a “psychological parent” to the children and that severing the relationship was not in the best interest of the children. I think there had already been other cases in the state with the same result, so I don’t know that anything new was actually decided here.

Ah, well, thank you. :slight_smile: I just got the impression from your OP that this was all news to you.

No, not really (although I haven’t looked at the specifics of this case). Cases that have given same-sex partners equal paternal rights have both succeeded and failed in recent years in different states.

Doesn’t really matter in the long run - one state’s laws are equal to any other’s.

True, it would go toward supporting both VT’s eventual CU’s and the (I think) inevitable equalization of marriages.

Sure - every little bit helps. :slight_smile:

No, I don’t think so. This just seems to be another custody case, and none of them have been particularly significant in terms of the definition of a family outside the area of that state’s divorce courts or family courts. But it sure can’t hurt!

Thanks for the good news.

Esprix


Ask the Gay Guy! (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy!)

In my reading of the case, available at http://www5.law.com/nj/cases/vc.htm , it seems that the basis of the ruling was that the non-biological parent in the breaking-up unmarried (of course) lesbian couple was a “psychological parent” of the children at issue, and that she was therefore had legal rights with regard to the children.

The court applied the test set forth by a Wisconsin court in determining who would qualify as a “psychological parent”, finding:

[quote]
The most thoughtful and inclusive definition of de facto parenthood is the test enunciated in Custody of H.S.H.-K., 533 N.W.2d 419, 421 (Wis. 1995), and adopted by the Appellate Division majority here. It addresses the main fears and concerns both legislatures and courts have advanced when addressing the notion of psychological parenthood. Under that test,

[t]o demonstrate the existence of the petitioner’s parent-like relationship with the child, the petitioner must prove four elements: (1) that the biological or adoptive parent consented to, and fostered, the petitioner’s formation and establishment of a parent-like relationship with the child; (2) that the petitioner and the child lived together in the same household; (3) that the petitioner assumed the obligations of parenthood by taking significant responsibility for the child’s care, education and development, including contributing towards the child’s support, without expectation of financial compensation [a petitioner’s contribution to a child’s support need not be monetary]; and (4) that the petitioner has been in a parental role for a length of time sufficient to have established with the child a bonded, dependent relationship parental in nature.

[quote]

The court held that the non-biological parent had met this test, and awarded her custody.

I would not say that this case is really in the line of cases leading directly to gay marriage. Rather, it is part of a line of cases recognizing that there are intermediate personal relationships, whether the participants are gay or straight, between marriage and being totally single. Other jurisdictions recognizing de facto relationships are mentioned in this thread.

The Canadian case www.droit.umontreal.ca/doc/csc-scc/en/pub/1999/vol2/html/1999scr2_0003.html mentioned in Cecil’s column on Gay Marriage is another that I would put in that category. In the Canadian case, the court found applicable to gay couples that the Canadian law that provided that unmarried couples who were cohabitating for a sufficient period could apply for support payments if the relationship broke up.

I think that these cases are reacting to the great diversity of human relationships out there, and trying to protect the interests of children or partners that have become economically dependent where a legal marriage is absent. The fact that some of the unmarried couples are gay is almost (but not entirely) incidential. I think the vast majority of the situations to which these developing rules will apply will invlove hetrosexual unmarried couples.

In short, the New Jersey case, and other similar ones around the world, are leading toward a recognition of intermediate de facto relationships, applicable to gays and straights, rather than to gay marriages, with all the right and obligations of straight marriages.

Speaking of the new Vermont laws:

Which filing status box do the pertners in a Vermont CU have to check on their Federal Income Tax returns?

Billdo

This was actually a Wisconsin Supreme Court decision. The court heard the case directly from the trial court with no appellate decision.

I know the attorney who proposed the test that the court accepted, BTW. Anyway, the court dismissed the custody portion of the suit, stating that petitioner did not “present a triable issue regarding [respondent’s] fitness or ability to parent her child and has not shown compelling circumstances requiring a change of custody.” Adopting the four-pronged visitation test, the court ruled that petitioner met the test and further concurred with the trial court that visitiation was clearly in the best interest of the child.

The USSC is currently reviewing a visitation statute from Washington state in a case involving grandparents seeking visitation with their grandchildren. There is some buzz that the court might accept the Wisconsin test as a national test.

tracer

It’s not law yet; it still needs to get through the state senate and there are noises that they’re going to go through it line by line and cause a big mess. When whatever final version does pass, partners in a civil union will check “single” on their federal income tax returns, because the federal government will not recognize civil unions or same-sex marriages (see DOMA).

I guess this part of the quote from the N.J. Supreme Court was a bit unclear without context. The Wisconsin test (which was from that state’s Supreme Court) was originally adopted by the majority in the New Jersey Appellate Division (N.J.'s intermediate appellate court), a decision appealed to the N.J. Supremes. The N.J. Supreme Court affirmed the Appellate Division’s adoption of that test.

You’re right here Otto. I misspoke the New Jersey Supreme Court awarded visitiation, not custiody.