Gay marriage and tradition

Great Debates
1

The thing that seperates gay marriage from traditional marriage is tradition.

You know what they say in that song.

“Tra-dish-uuuuuuuun! Tradishun! Bum bum bum ba-bum. Tradishun!”
It’s hard to argue with that.

As a veteran of many weddings, I am comfortable that I understand what is going to happen and when, and what is expected of me depending on my role.

Of there is a certain degree of flexibility within these things, but the framework is almost always the same.

Gay marriage is coming. The homophobes are lining up in the streets getting ready to be run over by the tanks of progress, so it occurs to me that I better get ready.

You see, I figure it won’t be too long before I have to go to a gay marriage.

This idea fills me with aprehension and fear, because I will have no idea what to expect, how to behave, what to do.

Maybe the framework has been all worked out for me already and it can be explained. But I think it would serve education, interest and entertainment purposes to debate the resolution of the traditional marriage in the context of gay marriage.

In the past I have seen no obstacle to gay marriage and I firmly support the process that will enable.

As a future attendee of a gay marriage that will be legally recognized the United States of America I do however see one major problem.

Who’s the bride?

I wish that are politicians and lawmakers were objecting on these grounds, because then I could at least understand and give credit to their concern.

If George Dubya took the podium and said “I beleive that marriage is between a man and a women, because that way we know who wears the garter, who buys the booze, and who pays for the reception. Therefore we have lawyers looking at protecting the American way of life and these traditions. Gay marriage has repercussions that threaten receptions, rehearsal dinners, and bouqet catching all across this nation. I therefore cannot support same sex marriages until we resolve whether we are supposed to have one or two bachelor parties.”

If he said something like that, I might have to nod my head in sage agreement.
So, since it’s coming, I want this explained to me. Assume we have a young happy couple, Jack and Jim. Let us also assume that jack and Jim both have supportive parents and friends, and they are going to have a public wedding and reception in a Church.

  1. Who buys the ring and proposes? Is a hand asked of the parents?

  2. Is there a bride and a groom? If not how does the tradittional division of tasks and roles go?

  3. Who’s responsible for the rehearsal dinner?

  4. Who buys the booze at the reception?

  5. Are there best men, maids of honor, best person? How do we handle that?

  6. Ushers and Usherettes? Bridal party?

  7. How many bachelor parties and who’s responsible for them and who’s allowed at them?

  8. What role do the parents take?

  9. Tradittional weddings do not really allow for the roles of gay people, yet gay people have displayed adaptability and generally fit into roles at tradittional weddings quite well. Assuming a mixed crowd of gays and straights at a wedding what should one expect and do? Will we be catching garters and bouquets, and who will be catching what?

  10. How does any and all of this change if Jack and Jim are Jenny and Jill?
    In short, I am looking to resolve the marriage process and ceremony in light of the coming of same sex marriages.

2

Why should the answer to these questions depend on the genders of the people getting married?

For example, why is the bride’s family traditionally responsible for paying for the wedding ceremony?

When we know why the current traditions are what they are, we can determine how to interpret them.

3

I dunno. That’s just the way it’s been.

The groom buys the ring, is responsible for the rehearsal dinner, and the booze at the reception, and the honeymoon. The bride is responsible for the ceremony and reception minus booze.

As a guest, family member, or member of a wedding party one knows their role based on tradittion. There probably is no good reason for doing it this beyond knowing your role.

I’m not trying to ask why, I’m trying to figure out how.

Let’s say my gay friend is getting married and I’m in the wedding party. Will there be another best man? another bachelor party? Do I as a straight man dance with the other best man?

Am I looking after the rings, arranging the bachelor party and such, or am I helping with the reception?

A tradittional marriage provides one with with a role and expectations, and duties.

How do these translate to a same sex marriage?

I think it’s a very interesting question because ultimately how these things translate and change will reflect back and create changes in tradittional marriage processes and ceremonies, as this aspect of society evolves.

4

I think that such decisions are best left up to the couple, just as they are in “normal” marriages. Some couples decide to dispense with certain aspects of the ceremony-- not all brides wear “something blue” and not all grooms have a bachelor party.

I don’t see the marriage ceremony as something which must remain static in order to be meaningful or proper. After all, many of our marriage customs are relatively recent developments, and we have completely discarded some old traditions. (Such as, the bride no longer vows to be “bonny and buxom in bed” as in the Tudor days, and some of our “customs” are outright modern inventions, such as the white wedding dress.)

5

Good Lord, who cares?

These “traditions” are pretty well bygones anyway. As couples are generally getting married older now, omore and more often they’re paying for their own weddings, not leaning on mommy and daddy.

Any demand that the “bride” be responsible for the ceremony, or that the “groom” buy the ring is downright sexist.

Marriage is about two people joining their lives together as a family through their love. The rest is just meaningless fluff, empty-calorie icing on the cake.

6

It’s important to distinguish between marriage in the religious sense and marriage in the civil sense. Forget what the government says; any religion is free to allow gay marriage. And some do now. Even in hetersexual marriages, traditions are re-written all the time. I’ve been to hetero marriages where the “maid of honor” was a “best man of honor”. And I’ve been in wedding parties where men stood with the bridal party and women stood with the “groomsmen”. The bridal couple set the rules and the wedding rehersal is set up to iron out any wrinkles that might appear.

The civil aspect about legal rights. The marriage ceremony itself is up the the bride and groom. That part is really not difficult. Working out the legal angle is what is going to be a big deal for American society.

7

Whoever gets up the guts to propose first does so. If the propos-ee is on good terms with his parents, the propos-er may ask them for his hand. This is already considered charming and silly in most straight fiançailles as I understand it.

Not unless they want there to be one, and whoever’s willing to pay for them.

Whoever can cook better.

The bigger wino.

There can be best people or attendants of honour, called whatever they feel like. It is handled by asking the person in question, “Would you stand up for us at our wedding?”

“Usherette” is a stupid word.

I would probably have one bachelor party for both of us. Queer men only; check your clothes at the door. But that’s just me.

“At the parents’ request, there will be an open bar throughout the ceremony.” - Bob Smith

If one or both of the grooms is wearing a garter or carrying a bouquet, why not?

It changes in that the spouses are female, not male.

You know, the Wedding Tradition is not, as popularly believed, inscribed in a large stela somewhere. It pretty much lost steam when the first hand-silkscreened card inscribed “Amethyst Moondrop and Joe Acacia invite you to commemorate the congruence of their lives…”

Everyone adapts what they believe the wedding ceremony to be to suit whoever and whatever they want to include, and the limits of their circumstances. An obsession with doing everything “correctly” indicates that one is attempting a pageant, not a religious or civil ceremony.

And finally, let me remind you that gay weddings have been going on for a long time, and the rules are the same as what they’ve always been: follow instructions; if you don’t know, ask; shut up when everyone else is shutting up; offer your best regards; and eat, drink, and be merry. I’m sure when the time comes, you’ll get through.

8

Right, like my family is paying for the harpist and the ice swan. Because they know how much I like ice swans and all that :slight_smile:

9

I expect to be invited to this wedding.

10

Yup, things change and sometimes it’s scarry. Welcome to planet Earth.

My own wedding was fairly non-traditional. We made a point of letting people know what roles they were expected to fill. And if there were still questions, they asked and we answered. Unless the gay couple in question are being cagey (“The Best Man will be revealed minutes before the ceremony. I could be you!”), I don’t see much of a difference.

11

hehehehe Scylla That was fun.

Check out the personal stories :slight_smile:

12

Culture is in flux; we make up our own traditions.

(Such as emoticons! A rich cultural tradition, invented in our lifetime!)

:wink:

Gay weddings will, over time, evolve a series of traditions, just as other weddings have. (e.g., instead of catching the garter, maybe the guests will line up to catch the necktie, etc.)

Trinopus

13

Emily Post, are you listening? There needs to be a new chapter in your Etiquette book for this.

14

Interesting.

The only thing I have to contribute here is that shortly after singing “Tra-dish-uuuuuuuun! Tradishun! Bum bum bum ba-bum. Tradishun!”, they all got beat up by Cossacks.

15

Ah yes, another tradition. I bet those farmers weren’t quite as excited about that one, eh? (Or, they were even more excited, just not in a good way.)

16

All the traditions you stated only apply to American Christian (and the more secularized and/or liberal Jewish, I suppose, as well as atheists sticking to tradition) weddings.

Is it oustide the realm of possibility that you may be asked to attend a traditional Shinto wedding? A Pagan handfasting? Hindu? Buddhist? Atheists making an attempt to depart from the Christian ceremony as far as they can? Hell, even Black people have some traditions that may seem strange to their white friends attending.

At the ceremony, would you shiver in terror at the sheer unfamiliarity of it all?

I doubt it. You’d deal. You can deal with two people of the same sex. And even if you couldn’t, all of the examples I listed above are legally recognized (if heterosexual) in the country (some if accompanied with a quickie visit to a Justice of the Peace, or something). Why shouldn’t gay marriage?

17

No bride. That’s what makes it a GAY marriage, you know. :wink:

Just haaaad to say it.

18

Not if it’s a lesbian wedding.

19

Does anybody remember when Latka got married on “Taxi”?

20

Are you still obligated to keep a straight face if one of the principals insists on wearing white?