I’ve asked this before, and never really got a good answer. So here it is again:
How many Christians have to be openly homophobic before it’s no longer unfair to say that Christianity is inherently bigoted? What’s the cut-off point? Judging by the numbers in this last election, it sounds like somewhere between two-thirds to three-quarters of Christians hate gays, at least in the dozen or so states that have voted on this issue in the last year. Is that not a high enough percentage to justify a broad brush? If not, what is? Eighty percent? Ninety? If someone could fill me in, I’d appreciate it. I’ve got some things I’d like to say on the issue, but I’d rather wait until blaming the victim is no longer a valid rebuttal.
Rickjay and Miller offered excellent rebuttals, so I’ll confine myself to saying that the "we’re not all like that " defense wears thin when it is apparent that a majority of you are like that. These measures passed overwhelmingly, which they could not have done had a majority of church-goers opposed the laws instead of approving them.
You can always find one or two decent members of the worst group. Al Qaeda probably has some quite decent guys as members, but that doesn’t make Al Qaeda a decent organization, does it? I don’t care what the tenets of your faith say when your actions say something else.
I no longer self-identify as a Christian (nor am I gay), but exactly how does one do this? I’ve seen many, many people, across every spectrum, work very diligently and hard to be heard and affect change. Unfortunately, a lot of times they are castigated as “pushing an agenda,” “shoving their lifestyle down someone’s throat/in their face” or that they are no longer showing charity, tolerance or patience. HOW do we get from those perceptions to a place where we can do some good to ensure that everyone has equal rights and protection? Where one belief system doesn’t hinder or demonize all others? I’d love to know how this can be achieved and if it’s even remotely possible, sign me up.
[Aside] To all those out there, of any spiritual stripe, who have made a stand for SS equality and refuse to bow to majority pressure, you have my eternal gratitude and respect. Especially the ones who feel it the most deeply (like all our gay Dopers and more worldwide) and those who don’t have a personal dog in this fight but continue to keep fighting anyway, you should be commended for espousing a true example of Godly love. Bless each of you. [/aside]
Then why did so many people vote for amendments that outlawed civil unions as well? It surprises me greatly to see you of all people argue that this sort of mob rule vote is the fault of those who were seeking equality, but failed to convince in time. Maybe mistakes were made in the “no” campaigns, but given the margins of victory in the results, it’s hard to see how a different result could have been obtained in many states. And at the end of the day, it is between the individual voter and his conscience to see that he is voting for oppression over liberty, or for some nebulous semantic prescriptivism over genuine need. This has nothing to do with PR, and I’m really quite surprised to see you take this position. A minority are being oppressed, and you’re blaming them? Is this really the libertarian viewpoint? Please tell me otherwise, because I’ve been on quite a libertarian journey of late, and would be most upset to discover I need to find a new direction.
Tell me: if the PR campaign is as simple as you suggest, what do you think I should tell my devoutly Christian friend, who is convinced that homosexuality is a sin? I love and respect her, and I know that when she says “love the sinner, hate the sin”, she believes what she says, even if I find it distasteful. She will never vote to encourage a sin, as she sees it. How do I combat her deeply held convictions? If I don’t do it soon enough, have I failed, or have I simply not had enough time?
Disclaimer: I too believe that generalisations about Christians are wrong, although in large part this is the issue that caused my loss of faith. I know several other Christians who probably would vote for at least civil unions, knowing that not everyone shares their beliefs.
Was it better when you only suspected it? If you had asked me I’d’ve told you how much they hate you. And always have. You were living in a fantasy world if you expected otherwise.
Not for their oppression, but for the means they are using to try to end it. You don’t end oppression by taking it off yourself and putting it on someone else. Slavery doesn’t end if slaves become masters and masters become the new slaves.
You need to stop making it about sin. (Bear with me here. I know you’re saying, “But she’s making it about sin.”) You’re letting her define the issue. And then what the leftists do is make her into an enemy by underscoring the dichotomy she has drawn, and responding to her position by calling her names and screaming that she is an idiot and hates them. Then they attack her very faith and the Object of it.
Tell her you do not blame her for never voting to encourage a sin, and that in her shoes, you might likely do the same **except ** that you know her God — a good and decent God — has given men free will to commit sin if they wish. Who is she to resist His grand plan? Tell her that the burden they bear for their sin is between them and her God, not between them and her. Tell her that Jesus never called on any government to make a law. Tell her that His kingdom is not even of this world. Tell her that this issue isn’t about sin, but about freedom. And tell her that if she denies freedom, then she is denying truth because her God said, “Truth will set you free.” (It’s a logical modus tollens.) Tell her that her God will not call upon her advice when He makes His judgments. Tell her to let go so that God can have the reins, that He doesn’t need her protection, and that He commands her to love and to show mercy even to sinners. Tell her that her oppression is actually causing sin because it discourages fidelity among the sinners. Finally, tell her that we all, as sinners, have sufficient work to do on ourselves to keep us busy for a whole lifetime. Tell her we do not have the time, the capacity, or the moral standing to work on others so long as we ourselves are stained. Tell her to give them freedom, and to leave it then in God’s hands.
It’s a sad day, indeed. This country hates gays more than they love their country. They will face more war and debt, but as long as Bob and Steve don’t marry, they think they’ve won something. I’m proud that such initiatives died quickly in my homes state, and that we voted for Kerry.
Quick factual question: Does anyone know how many of the 11 amendments that were passed (were they all state constitution amendments, or were some just plain old laws?) say anything about civil unions, and what they say?
thanks.
Oh, and I think it’s possible to criticize Christianity as an institution as it exists in the US today without criticizing either (a) every single last Christian in the US today, or (b) the hypothetical idea of Christianity.
Ouch, dropzone. That hurts.
I think Gobear has always known there was a minority of homophobic screwheads, but to have a huge number of people in 11 different states go out of their way to make his life worse is a very different thing.
I mean, I knew I was an unpopular kid, but that sort of random and non-specific cloud of dislike was a very different thing from the time a whole class of kids deliberately did something horrible to me.
I’m not very gay and *I’m * offended that so many Americans votes to deny a group of citizens equal rights. Gobear has the unpleasant ability to take it personally.
I voted, in Georgia, against the ban on same sex marriages.
Because I feel, as a totally hetero female, that it was my fight, alongside each and every person who feels that civil rights must be upheld and enjoyed by everyone, regardless of those little things that make them who they are.
Bless every one of you who managed to keep that in perspective, and may all who are disappointed know that to me, at least, the fight isn’t over.
There was a time when I would disagree with gobear strongly on this, but lately I have become very frustrated and disgusted that people can be part of a financial institution (church) that supports bans on gay marriages and yet claim to be for the right for gays to marry.
There’s only so long one can make that claim without being a hypocrate, liar, or incrediably naive.
No, because I didn’t say they were. That’s what they want to do. They want to replace one myopic oppression with another — their own. The two sides are equally brick-headed, each wanting The State to define marriage in a manner favorable to them. The anti side has the greater political clout. That’s how things work in this system. What gays should be doing, to end the oppression, is what was done to end slavery. You have to end the institution. Stop letting The State define marriage at all. Join a fucking party whose platform advocates exactly that, rather than a party that butt-fucks them every four years, thanks them, and then goes on its merry way.
Please explain how allowing marriage subjugates adn strips rights from heterosexual couples. As a heterosexual married man, I’d like to know. If I’d know of my impeding indentured servitude, I’d have never cast my ballot in Oregon against measure 36.
I agree with you through sentece four. We can’t let the opposition mis-deine the issue. But the rest of your statement perplexes me. Are you really asking folks to defend SSM by appealing to it’d Biblical basis? I can’t see success there. Separating it into a purely legal, civil form is the only way I can see for success.
The measures weren’t about allowing marriage; they were about defining marriage. See my response to Miller.
That won’t work with the woman he described to me. She needs to know that God Himself wants her to let it go, and wants her to give people the same freedom He gives them. By denying them freedom of their will, she is obstructing *His * will.
People here need to stop and realize that Democrats lost the whole farm yesterday. They even lost their Senate leader, and in fact, are five seats away from being unable to sustain a filibuster. When that happens, it’s over. It is self-evident that what Democrats have been doing is not working.
Hear, hear. Christianity as it exists in the hearts of people like Siege or Polycarp, and Christianity as it exists as a political force in this country are not recognizable as the same entity.
Jesus fucking Christ, if that’s not the stupidest idea I’ve heard in my entire fucking life. Because the best antidote to the widespread misconception that gays are trying to destroy heterosexual marriage is to go out and actually try and destroy it! Fucking brilliant! Next, to counter the suggestion that gays are all pedophiles, we should all run out and have a bunch of sex with children!
You want to know why Libertarians are never going to be a legitimate politcal party? Because you’re a bunch of fucking morons! Now piss the fuck off and go vote for another smurf, you fucking lunatic.