And how’s that workin’ for you? For gays? For the more poor than ever? For the disenfranchised and politically powerless? For the oppressed that are here screaming for justice? Their screams are your refutation. What The State creates are wealthy politicians and bureaucrats. That’s why It concentrates wealth with Itself. That’s why It holds powers like emiment domain and asset forfeiture. Don’t forget that when It collects Its taxes, It keeps the biggest portion for Itself.
This is an excellent point. At least with the Republicans you get “no fags, no killing babies, the Bible and bombs.” It is straight and clear, so no one can bitch about that. The Dems don’t offer much except “Well, we don’t like fags too much either, but we’ll tolerate 'em.”
What?
Now I’m really confused. Does this mean I can marry anyone, I can’t marry anyone, or I can only marry myself?
Liberal: And how’s that workin’ for you? For gays? For the more poor than ever? For the disenfranchised and politically powerless? For the oppressed that are here screaming for justice? Their screams are your refutation.
Well, actually, many developments such as increasing inequality and increasing political corruption have coincided with increasing deregulation and less state oversight over the past 20–25 years. Correlation is not cause, but it’s at least arguable that the worsening situation could indicate a need for more state intervention in certain areas, not less.
(And Lib, you know I respect you and honor your sincerity despite our differences, but I have to point out that it kind of reinforces spectrum’s extreme negative stereotypes of Libertarians when you capitalize pronouns referring to “The State”. Oooh, the state—sorry, “The State”—is an “It”! Spooky!! 
C’mon, there are plenty of serious rational criticisms to make about governmental power without playing the Big Bad Bogeyman card.)
I went to work today (which is why I haven’t made any follow up posts) expecting to give -somebody-, -anybody-, a really bad day. But thankfully, none of my coworkers or customers brought up anything about the election or ballot measures.
I’ve felt sick to my stomach all day. I would’ve just stood in bed if I could, but I issa poor boy and can’t afford to miss work even for a single hour.
There are just no words–no words at all that can describe the pain of waking up and realizing that, yes, you are a second class citizen. Realizing that you are -not- created equal to the others around you. As a previous poster said–it’s not just that the ballot passed, but that they passed by such huge margins. In Utah where I am, it was 64/36 – in most other states it was even higher.
Everywhere I went today, it was like a specter hanging over my head. Seeing bosses, coworkers, customers, people on the street, and wondering silently to myself, “Who? How many of these people voted for the ban? Who should I place my hate on?”
I am disillusioned beyond ways that words can describe. I hate you, America. If I wasn’t living from week to week trying to make ends meet, I’d be out of here in a heartbeat. But instead, I just have to grit my teeth, recede into that closet a little more, and hope to God I can spare the sanity to remain awhile longer.
Any Christian, on this board or otherwise, who says they are in favor of allowing gays to share -your- civil rights, is doing themselves a disservice if they still go to church. -my- lord is a kind and loving lord, but -your- institution of church is hateful and biased creation of Man with no more divinity left in it. In the past, people who have seen the corruption of church at the hands of humans have foresaken it to join or create a church anew and in purer standing with the tenets of kindness and warmth. Anyone who proclaims themselves an ardent supporter of -my- rights and still allies themselves with what has proven yesterday to be an overwhelming bastion of hate should do the same, and be ashamed of themselves if they don’t.
God, I feel so awful reflecting on it all.
I’m going to school to become a nurse. One day, the care of the people who hate -me- will be in my hands. And yet–I will still give them the best care that I possibly can. I wonder–if the situation were reversed, would they do the same for me?
WTF?? There are a few dozen threads on this very message board setting forth arguments that the American state is about to spend the next four years harming the helpless, tilting the playing field in favor of the privileged class so that it can accrue even more wealth and power, and enforcing the oppression of the middle class by the upper class. 
I don’t hate you, gobear. Hell, I’d let you date my brother.
It’s Freire, *Pedagogy of the Oppressed. * Loosely summarized, he says that if you use your power to shit on those who shat on you, it was no damn revolution at all.
So tell me this, Polycarp: when someone like Clothahump or kanicbird comes along and shits all over a thread by saying that homosexuals are all deviants or perverts, or says that homosexuality is a disease, or that homosexuals are diseased, or that they’re promiscuous and hedonistic and have loose morals, how am I supposed to react?
Do I just say, “well I know they’re not talking about me, so it’s okay.” Or do I say, “Well, they have a point there, because there are an awful lot of homosexuals who are promiscuous, or drug addicts, or who believe that societal institutions like marriage should be abolished, so I’ll just give them that one.” Because I’m really having trouble seeing the difference.
I’m going to speak out when people tell lies about homosexuality, and I’m going to be insulted that they would say shit about me without knowing anything about me. The same goes for Christianity – I’m not going to sit back and say, “well, that’s okay, I’ll let it slide,” when somebody comes in and says that my religious belief system is about hate. Because I know my religious belief system, and it’s a hell of a lot more advanced than what any pea-brained, talking-head moron fighting against gay rights makes it out to be. And if people would get their sanctimonious and self-righteous heads out of their asses long enough to actually find out what Christianity was about instead of making blanket dismissals of it, then we’d probably get a lot farther.
Bitter, hyperbolic, completely myopic and unjustified rant: check.
God help you, Otto, because if you and others show lack of respect for other people, then how in the hell do you expect anyone to treat you with one shred of respect?
I see a lot of people blaming stuff that’s fucked up in our society on one group and shouting down anyone who tries to suggest, “it’s not as simple as you’re making it out to be.” Back when it was just some self-described “Christian” fundamentalist groups blaming all of society’s ills on the homo-sexuals, it was bad enough. Now that it’s everybody else blaming homophobia on the Christians, it’s just too depressing. Fucking lot of hypocritical bastards lumping each other into big groups so they can scream and point and call names. There’s just no hope to get anywhere with that pea-brained mentality.
You know what? I DON’T FUCKING CARE.
In fact, while the Republican’s might not have a problem catering to the racists with their “Southern Strategy”, in order to retain numbers, I don’t give a flying fuck if the Democrats never win so much as a seat on a school board. I want the homophobes to get the fuck out of the party now. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. I’d rather be on the side of the loser than have hate on my side. Yes, their numbers are likely greater on the Republican side, hence the push for these bans now, but there were obviously quite a few haters on the left side, too. Go join the other party which actually peddles this shit.
gobear and others, while it did little fucking good, know that me and my wife were two of the few votes in Cobb County, GA that were looking for the “Hell No” or “No Fucking Way You Phelp’s Fuckers” choice for this Amendment, but had to settle for just “No.”
Yes, I’d happily give Bush the presidency if none of these initiatives had passed, and would even give the Republicans that job for the next 20 years if instead a Federal Amendment had passed giving gays the same rights as everyone else. It would have been worth it. I roll my eyes at my country for choosing Bush, but I puke my guts out thinking of how overwhelmingly these things passed in my country.
Intead of rephrasing my reaction, I’ll cross-post a piece of my larger rant in this thread. It says pretty much what I wanted to say.
Reasonable, Sol.
I was attempting to make an effort to “turn the other cheek” without being a self-righteous prig about it.
But I guess that’s another one of those “liberal” ideas that good Christians are only supposed to give lip service to, not actually practice.
I’ve swallowed about a dozen hateful responses to various people today – some of them only in my mind, some of them got to the Reply screen but got deleted.
Let me know if the moderate area where reasoned, compassionate discourse is permitted ever emerges again, willya, Sol? You once seemed to like posting in that area, as did I.
Well, it seems that the majority of your co-religionists think that hating gays is a pretty fundamental part of Christianity. And they’re not shy about saying so. Why should I take your word on what Christianity is really about over theirs? They’ve certainly got the numbers on their side. What have you got?
Well, according to the Book they’re pounding, the explicit words of the Guy who is supposed to be God in Human Form on what is the most important thing to do, and how not to go about it. They blithely reinterpret the former, and ignore the latter, in favor of some example from Leviticus or II Samuel, or most importantly by taking a line in one of Paul’s letters out of context and building a moral code around it.
Not that I’m arguing; that seems to be futile. But you asked; I answered.
I’ve got my beliefs and my faith. And I know my religion says, and it’s not that homosexuality is wrong. That’s plenty for me. You don’t want to be a Christian? Fine, that’s your perogative in a government with freedom of religion. Just recognize that the freedom goes both ways – you don’t have any more right to tell me I’m wrong for believing the way I do, than I would to tell you you’re wrong for believing the way you do. I wouldn’t tell you that you’re wrong, or naive, or a hypocrite for being an atheist/agnostic/whatever, but somehow I don’t deserve the same consideration.
According to the votes and polls, a majority of Americans are homophobes. You’re an American; why should I take your word that America isn’t all about homophobia and hatred? I mean, they’ve got numbers on their side. Why haven’t you left the country yet?
For that matter, a majority of men are heterosexual. And they’re not shy about saying so. Why should I take your word when you claim to have this fanciful notion of not being entirely 100% heterosexual? Why should I believe you don’t think and act exactly like every other male human on the planet?
I want to know where the fundamental idea of tolerance got lost. Where people began to think that attacking Christians was any more valid than attacking homosexuals.
It’s even more distressing because so many of the people who oppose gay rights try to justify it by saying that homosexuals are trying to attack their freedom of religion. And when people go around saying that “Christianity is about hate” and “Fuck Christians!” that just plays right into that.
yes, no,no,yes.
They understand the argument, but God says its wrong and thats all they need.
They probably think I need to wise up.
Two excellent questions that I do not have answers for.
As for what Christianity is all about, I don’t really care about your internal schisms. You say it’s about one thing. They say it’s about another. Don’t blame me for pointing out that they’re winning. Maybe it’s time to find a different name for your religion, because whatever the hell it is you’re practicing, it sure bears precious little resemblence to what most folks call Christianity.
So find a new church. Vote with your feet.
I’m not sure exactly what line in which Pauline letter you’re thinking of, but I really love it when they do it with the deutro-Pauline epistles. Then they really have no idea what they’re talking about.